Well, perhaps I should’ve said this: sin is disobedience to God. What makes something a sin is the willfulness behind an action that you know to be in disobedience to God. That is what offends God. And, yes, there are times when we disobey God unknowingly, or out of sudden passion, or due to illness, etc., but there was no will behind it.
What about the thousands of sexual deviants who are convinced that there is no sin in their lifestyle, or the murderers who kill in God’s name convinced that they are doing him a service? Doesn’t He find these offensive? Wouldn’t he likewise find it offensive if I were to, in misunderstanding, lounge a half hour more than He knows is necessary?
Does the Roman Catholic Church really teach that committing an objectively sinful action is not sinful if the offender was not convinced that it was? I thought that teaching only applied to mortal sin. I’ll have to look into it, but honestly I’m incredulous.
EDIT: Because it seems like leeway to just not care about your actions. For instance, I was on the fence for a long time if pirating digital copyrighted content was a sin due to the way I was raised where everyone did it. My conscience convicted me and I spent a long time debating with myself until I finally came to the conclusion that what I was doing is wrong. If I were to believe this it seems like I could just say “whatever, it’s probably not a sin.”
Actually, this is similar to what Literalman typed in his responses above a few months ago, maybe there really is something to it.
Oh, got it. But my problem is not that I’m scurpulous about whether or not I’m committing a mortal sin or not, I’m scrupulous that I’m committing sin in general. I’m not worried about my salvation, I’m worried about causing God to suffer.
I understand, but I’m still causing him suffering while trying to please Him. And therefore I’m still scrupulous about it.
I try to love God with all my heart, I can’t just say to myself “it’s a venial sin, it’s not that hurtful.”
If yes, then good. If you do all that, then you’re doing just as you should.
I know, I understand and agree with everything you just typed. But these venial sins are still causing God to suffer, aren’t they? And that makes me scrupulous.
I’m constantly wondering and beating myself up if, for instance, going by our example, I am sinning by lying in bed an extra 15 mins. Maybe I should only lie in bed for 5 mins or 10? And I’ll be lying down and debating with myself and wondering if God had to suffer because I wanted to lie down a bit more. And then I’ll do this for dozens of other actions every day. It makes me miserable, but I don’t see a logical justification for why I, as someone who loves God with all my heart, shouldn’t be doing this. Because the only 2 ways out I see are: a) stop caring about whether my sins hurt God; b) believe that my sins don’t hurt God.
I wonder if the “Imperfections” here are what Eastern Christianity considers involuntary sins.
If I continue to believe that every tiny imperfection causes God pain, and if I continue to care about it, then consequently I’ll continue to be scrupulous. The quote was nice to read, maybe I’ll even order her books, but ultimately the problem remains.
Thanks for the conversation though, and thanks for trying to help. I sincerely appreciate it.
I couldn’t find my post, but I’m pretty sure that what I wrote was that if something is not explicitly or implicitly forbidden, or if it is not explicitly or implicitly commanded, then it would be up to me to decide whether it’s right or wrong (or neither). Stealing is explicitly forbidden, and intentionally taking digital material without paying for it, even though it is owned by someone and is for sale, is stealing. It’s not grand theft auto (I’m making a joking reference to some digital material) but it’s still wrong.
Some say happy get lucky, momma needs a new pair of shoes, whatever?
Logically any sin could become rationally “whatever” could be philosophically “The Anti Christ” rationally becoming something other than through the Christ from the Will of The Father through The Mother for two natures, spirit and life for the Son becoming through One Christ Body becoming again in all One God Family, I believe.
We know not to preach or proselytize and only to generalize for all becoming again One God, I believe.
To me rationally, when someone says, whatever logic becomes the choice placing choice in the hands of chance.
Rationally from the mind of God choice becomes again the image of The Father or by choice not.
Whatever can become anything, I believe, perhaps from a foreign unknown force failing through a corruptible pattern becoming of anything possible, I imagine, I think?
Consider this hypothetical: Mr. Warner produced a movie and sells it through Best Buy. You and I both want to watch it. You go to Best Buy and purchase a DVD. Suppose I steal it from you. You can’t watch the movie anymore because you don’t have the DVD. Now, suppose that instead I borrow it, burn a copy onto my own legally purchased blank DVD, and then return your copy. We both have a DVD of the movie - there is no stealing. What has happened is that Best Buy has an unsold copy of Mr. Warner’s movie that they would have both received payment for had I purchased it legally. Nothing was stolen, but they both lost out on revenue they should have received (the same can be said of reselling used DVDs, but that’s getting too deep into it). I struggle to see how this is significantly different from you denying the government revenue it should have received from your train tickets.
So that’s my point, just because you or I decide that something is not wrong, doesn’t mean that it’s not wrong. Using the above logic there was a period in my life when I had convinced myself that digital piracy is not sinful because it’s not stealing - that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t sinful. I was too stupid to understand that I was sinning.
I am scrupulous that there are many other daily actions I take that are causing God pain. Since I am not all-knowing, there is a real possibility that some of these actions really are sinful. I have come to accept this. And so the only way out of the scrupulosity is to either stop caring that these sins hurt God (“He loves you anyway”), or to believe that they don’t hurt Him (the path I’ve chosen).
EDIT: Or, I could embrace the scrupulosity and live the rest of my life in anxiety and misery. I wouldn’t be against that if I believed it’s what God wants, but it’s hard to believe that He does.
But then you said, “Nothing was stolen.” It’s hypothetical, right? But in this situation, making a copy for yourself would have been stealing too. Typically a DVD has an FBI warning at the beginning, indicating that it’s a crime to make your own copy. Also, the DVD probably had a copyright notice, which indicates that the owner, not you, has a right to make copies. So I don’t see how someone could conclude that making his own copy wasn’t wrong without ignoring the copyright notice and FBI warning. People exempt themselves from laws all the time. It’s rare to see a driver on our street obeying the speed limit, and only a small minority obey the stop signs, even when I am crossing the street. And I’ve heard drivers say, “I didn’t hurt anybody,” by which I guess they mean “I didn’t hit anybody this time.” But the Bible says you must not endanger your neighbor’s life, not that it’s OK to risk injury to someone else as long as injury doesn’t occur.
As for the payment for train tickets, one person thought it was a sin not to pay and another thought it was a sin to pay. Clearly it wasn’t black and white to everybody. But as a question of ethics, you said I was “denying the government revenue it should have received.” I don’t agree that it was “denying” the money to the government. I was ready and willing to pay, but during the 5-mile trip, the crew didn’t come around to collect fares. But if you think I sinned, what would you have done? What do you think would be the ethical thing to do?
EDIT: Adding this to to clarify on the above. In scenario A: I steal your DVD and as a result I have the movie and you don’t. In scenario B: you lend me your DVD to copy and as a result we both have the movie and in this scenario nothing was stolen.
That’s not stealing, that’s breaking the law.
To pay for the tickets beforehand at the booth, like most others. Don’t you think you similarly broke the law by not paying your fare?
EDIT 2:
So the driver doesn’t know that he is sinning, but he is sinning. That’s my point.
I agree that with tremendous amounts of prayer, study, and self-reflection the driver might come to the understanding that he sins in this action. But no amount will clear all doubts about every single action from our mind.
I didn’t know there was a booth. I lived there for years and thought that the ticket office in the station was open only on weekday mornings. And so most others boarding at that station in early evening were buying tickets from a booth that I didn’t know about? I thought that if you boarded a train there in the evening you had to buy your ticket on board when the conductor came around. And what did the law say about it?
And drivers don’t know that it’s wrong to run stop signs, especially when someone is crossing the street? I don’t buy that. I say it’s plainly wrong, and it’s in the Bible, as I mentioned above. The stop sign runners could use some scrupulosity.
I can’t understand the entire situation, but from the post where you shared this story you made it look like you deliberately tried to manipulate the situation to avoid paying your fare. I’m pretty sure that’s breaking the law (if not in letter then in spirit), and it reminds me of the same situation where I was breaking the law but had convinced myself that I wasn’t doing anything wrong.
You’re picking the most severe example with the driver, allow me to do the same with the counter-example: I was driving on a highway and there was a sign demanding all cars slow down by 20mph due to ongoing road work. It was for a stretch of several miles, and I was more or less the only car driving at the required speed limit (and consequently causing a bit of a traffic jam). Surely you don’t think that every single driver on the road was an evil person who deliberately decided to cause God suffering so that they could save a few minutes of time?
There is nuance to all of this. The fact that we can find something to argue about with digital piracy or train fares demonstrates this. And what I’m trying to get across is that from my point of view to be dismissive of this nuance and just say “it’s probably not a sin” is to be dismissive of the possibility of causing God to suffer. That doesn’t seem right, especially seeing as He commanded us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind.
To set the facts straight: Here’s what I originally wrote about not paying a train fare because the crew didn’t come around to collect tickets: “when I was really low on money and had a family with four young children, sometimes I would go 5 miles on a train; the ticket cost probably less than $2. I knew that on a few trains, the conductor didn’t usually collect tickets from or sell tickets to passengers getting on near the end of the line heading away from the city. I would choose one of those trains to ride and bring the money to buy a ticket but hope that the conductor wouldn’t come around checking tickets.”
You said that there were other passengers, most of whom were buying tickets from a ticket booth. Where did you get this (mis)information? You say I was manipulating the situation. That’s your “nuance,” but I wasn’t in control. Yes, I took advantage of the situation. You indicate that it was illegal. That’s your nuance too, because I can’t think of any law that applies, and you didn’t cite one either when asked. I take it that you think that God suffered because of what I did. You are free to think that, but I recommend that you base your nuances on reality, not on “most others” and a ticket booth that wasn’t there. And you didn’t answer the question as to what you would have done in the situation and what would have been ethical.
Surely, that’s right. Is it your opinion? I said nothing that implied this at all.
You say I picked “the most severe example with the driver.” I gave two examples: speeding through our residential neighborhood and running stop signs, especially when people are crossing the street. These are not severe examples. These are everyday examples. As I pointed out, it’s rare that a driver obeys the speed limit in our neighborhood. Drivers running stop signs while I am crossing the street are not a rare thing. This happens to me typically once or twice a day unless I don’t go out. The severe examples would be the two (so far) drivers who have hit me and a family friend who was killed by a truck, I think it was last year. You may find nuances to these situations, but don’t expect me to make excuses for the drivers.
I did not say that they intentionally injured me, killed a family friend, or “decided to cause God suffering.” I do suspect that they broke traffic laws without regard to the risk to others.
If I have caused you offense know that was not my intention.
I probably got this misinformation because you typed “…but hope that the conductor wouldn’t come around checking tickets.” I therefore assumed that most of the riders on the train already had tickets purchased that could be checked. This is very common, and I didn’t imagine a situation where the conductor goes around selling tickets to riders already on the train, but doesn’t bother selling to the whole train. I corrected myself in the following post where I typed that I can’t understand the entire situation without having been there. I’m sorry if this offended you.
If I were in this situation I would have not deliberately tried to manipulate the situation by placing myself in an area where I could have gotten away with using a paid service for free. Let me illustrate with an example: if I have a road and I charge $1 to use that road and you don’t want to pay so you time the situation so that you drive by while I’m on my bathroom break that is unethical. I’m not going to go digging through the law books (especially since I don’t even know whose jurisdiction you were under), but, again, even if there is no law that specifically says “it is illegal to hide oneself from the ticket conductor while he is selling tickets” it goes against the spirit of the law.
Breaking traffic laws isn’t a sin? It doesn’t cause God to suffer? It seems I’m putting words in your mouth when I’m not sure what you’re trying to get across with the driver example, can you elaborate?
“manipulate the situation by placing myself in an area where I could have gotten away with using a paid service for free” and “hide oneself from the ticket conductor”: it wasn’t an “area,” it was a train. I didn’t hide myself, I got on board and sat in a seat. The crew did not come around to check tickets or sell me a ticket. Illegal? In 1990, did New Jersey have a law such as “No passenger may board a train hoping not to have to pay the fare”? Nonsense. Tell me what the law did say. But I am not going to discuss it any more. If you can point out a law that you think I broke, go ahead. If not, and you think I hurt God, you can pray for me and do penance for me. OK?
As for the drivers, there is nothing to elaborate. I don’t know their intentions. I don’t imagine that they intentionally hit me or our friend. But I think I can say objectively that their breaking the law is sometimes injurious and even fatal to others. That is wrong. No nuance from me.
Just rereading our conversation: you made the claim that digital piracy is sinful because it breaks the law. You then compared this to drivers who break the law by disobeying traffic signals. I highlighted that this is exactly what I was talking about - we sin (and hurt Jesus) lots of times without knowing so and therefore we should be scrupulous about every little action.
After that your replies got confusing - on the one hand you type that it is obvious they are breaking the law, but on the other hand you seem to be arguing that they aren’t hurting Jesus when they do so. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here.
“you seem to be arguing that they aren’t hurting Jesus when they do so” (injure or kill people as a result of breaking traffic laws).
I said I don’t know the drivers’ intentions. I said nothing about whether they hurt Jesus. In fact, if I am one of the least of His brothers and our friend was one of the least of His sisters, they certainly did hurt Jesus when they hit us with their cars and truck.
You’re taking the most extreme example - injuring pedestrians is not the only possible traffic violation. Disobeying road work speed reduction signs is similarly a violation of the law. Do you agree that drivers sin when they violate traffic laws in general? That they cause Jesus suffering when they do so? Do you agree that most (Catholic drivers) aren’t aware that they do? Do you agree that, similarly, we hurt Jesus through other daily infractions (EDIT: and are either unaware or unsure that we do so)? Did I change your mind? How do we solve this problem?
Thanks for mentioning road work. Earlier this year a construction worker saved my life when I was crossing a street. I saw a car coming and the driver wasn’t stopping for the red light when I was crossing with a walk sign. I didn’t see the second red light runner coming, and the construction worker stepped into the road and forced him to stop. Drivers can injure people, they can kill people, and they can steal people’s safety.
Drivers around here in Pennsylvania often take the sidewalks and crosswalks and use them for parking. Just about every day I see a wheelchair ramp blocked by a parked car. I’m not in a wheelchair, but what is someone in a wheelchair supposed to do?
Traffic laws are there to protect people. St. Paul said to be subject to every human authority. Drivers who disobey traffic laws are endangering others. So I say, obey the Bible, obey the laws, and treat others with respect.
How should I know what most Catholic drivers are aware of? But they generally have to pass an exam to get a license. Surely they were taught that at stop signs, they must stop, look for traffic and pedestrians, yield to pedestrians, and then proceed if it’s safe. Does it hurt Jesus when they don’t? Ask Him yourself.