I don’t mean to be a downer here but I’m really feeling sad this morning because I’ve went down a rabbit hole about Bishop Barron and certain facebook pages he follows. I really liked him and overall it just makes me disgusted. Plus it makes me feel like when these scandals happen that I’ve been duped. Like I’ve been told I have to follow the rules but others don’t. Like I am the good brother of the prodigals son who follows the rules but my brother sins but then he gets a party when he repents. I also can’t help but feel people act like such goody goodies but then get discovered and beg for forgiveness when in reality they seem to be just sad they got caught. I get forgiveness is good and I shouldn’t let the problems of others affect my faith, but I just can’t do it anymore. I see so many fakes not just in the church but just in life in general. Left, right, center, traditional, orthodox, heterodox. Its like everyone just play acts how good they are when in reality they are all just broken, but sadly rather than fixing themselves, they just say sorry to Jesus or to whatever false god they believe in or whoever runs their lives and that’s it. I’m just sick of it. I’m sick of the fakeness. It almost makes me wonder if the version of God I was taught about was just a ploy. Not that I don’t believe in God, but I just don’t know if he’s the God I was taught to believe. I need help. Thanks.
We listen to Bishop Barron’s homilies every Thursday Night at our weekly Men’s Bible Study.
This scandal broke a few weeks ago and was quickly swept under the rug by Word on Fire. I do not buy the story that his account was hącked, as this could very easily be proven (one way or another).
It is common (not good) for individuals caught posting inappropriate things online (or in this case liking certain posts) to claim that they were hącked. I’m thinking of the woman from MSNBC who had tweeted some controversial things and without skipping a beat, claimed she was hącked (which of course was a lie).
It is also common for individuals caught in sin to deflect or to hide. We saw this with the sin of Adam & Eve. Adam blamed Eve and I’m sure both blamed the serpent. They also tried to hide from God (as if they could).
It is natural to feel the way that you are feeling. We expect more from our leaders. God expects more of our leaders (I’m thinking of Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:42, and Luke 17:2).
I have not gone down the rabbit hole, so I have not heard an update. Has he admitted it was him and repented publicly since denying it? He may have repented before God (assuming he did do this).
We should not look at our faith as “following the rules.” We are called to obedience, yes, but it is about a relationship with our Heavenly Father. And I am typically a “rule follower.”
I am reminded of Matthew 7:4. This it not to say that what others have done is okay (it is not). It has been my experience that when I have felt closest to God, the less I am fixated on what others are doing, because I am fixated on Christ.
I have a few questions for you to ponder or Pray about (not for you to answer here on a public forum, as these are personal questions).
- Are there areas in my life where I am “fake” or hypocritical?
- Are there unconfessed sins I have committed that if they were to come out, it would scandalized others who look up to me.
- Have I deflected the blame or ever lied about something I have wrongly done?
- Have I put human individuals on a pedestal, only to be disappointed by them when they fall? Do I put my trust in men more than I put my trust in God?
- Do I see God as simply someone who rules over me or do I see Him as a loving Father who delights in my relationship with Him (which includes love, obedience, trust, forgiveness, and so much more that this world does not offer me?
I think your struggle is between God’s justice and God’s mercy. God is both just and merciful, which seems like a contradiction to many, but to see God as only one or the other is a mistake.
I want to thank you for your candidness. Genuinely. I know it might feel like I am turning this around back onto you, but I want you to know that I too am saddened by this scandal (if true). We cannot control the things that others do. We can only control our own choices and behavior. Rather than judge others (Matthew 7:1-2 and John 8:7), we should Pray for their conversion (a turning away from sin & perversion and towards Jesus Christ, the Ransom who sets us free from sin).
Wow…this was a tough read, only because it brings back memories of what went on with me.
So, before I say what I’m about to say, I am an ex-Catholic, and that’s always my disclaimer when I talk to people about the faith. So, keep that in mind when you read my response.
I can empathize with you on this, I really could. It was funny, cause anytime a tragedy would happen involving the Church, I would always hope and even pray that The Church will see that this is a major problem and address it in accordance with what the Church believes. And, every single time, it was almost as if it never happened. And that kind of bothers me….because these scandals have a very broad ripple effect in the Catholic community. I mean, these are families we’re talking about, these are children that have a Mom and a Dad, so….when something like this happens, it’s not just a Church scandal, it’s a community scandal, because it affects the community. And so what usually happens, is people get aggravated over it, and this scandal will linger for about a week or 2, and then, all of a sudden it’s as if it never happened. Everyone goes back to what they were doing before the scandal, and it’s literally like it never happened at all. And I’ve realized too, this isn’t just a Catholic thing, this is a system thing. When Charlie Kirk was shot, it was literally as if nothing happened. I can remember, when I would pass by a school after that man was shot, I saw no security guards with guns at the entrances and exits of the school. If there was any type of security that I would see, it would be like a teacher, but I know those teachers aren’t armed. It just…the whole thing blows my mind, how people can just literally just go back as if nothing happened. And these shootings have been going on for a pretty long time, and what do we do? Nothing….we do nothing. We don’t arm our schools with security guards with guns, we don’t have metal detectors before you enter a school, it was literally like this horrible and tragic situation never even occurred….and you talk about ignorance, that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen in my life.
But, I’m getting away from myself. I also agree with you. Sorry, but it’s the truth and that is, there is a lot of fakery going on in the Church. Alot of underhanded stuff going on, but what bothers me is why are protecting these people. These are criminals, these are hardened criminals, and we’re protecting these people? Why? Why are we wasting our time and resources with these sick-minded people? It just doesn’t make sense. Especially when the Church is supposed to be setting the example for their people, and yet, they don’t…. And isn’t that the really sad part?
We have to remember, that the Church operates as a business. And, it’s a big business….I mean we’re talking about 90% of the population on Earth is either Catholic or Christian, so this is a big business. And this business makes a lot of money worldwide, it’s not like the Church is low on money, that’s not the issue hear nor is it ever the issue. So because the Church has so much money, it has a lot of influence. So, it’s not like this business is suffering…they’re doing pretty good, even in this terrible economy. I mean, yeah, technically every year, people are leaving the Church, but how badly do you think that hurts the Church? I’d say it probably doesn’t REALLY hurt the Church, it might be bad for a little bit, but they’ll get their numbers up again. But, I’ve noticed that businesses that are doing pretty well tend to do whatever it is they want to do. And the reason they can do whatever they want is because of the amount of money they make. Because if they make a mistake, or if something bad happens, all they have to do is give someone money and it’s taken care of, no questions asked. I mean, Wal-Mart does this almost all the time. They’re such a big corporation that they can afford to whatever is they want to do, and they do, and they get away with it. Cause, I guarantee you, the only reason people shop at Wal-Mart is because of the convenience factor. Cause, comparatively Wal-Marts prices are low compared to like Target. But, I guarantee you, if Wal-Mart didn’t have such good prices on everyday things, they wouldn’t be as big as they are right now.
Leaving the Church is not an easy thing to do. It is harder than people really realize, not just because you’ve gone to Church your whole life and you’re about to leave something that has become a part of you. But, it’s hard to leave because of the after-effects of your decision. Because, when someone finds out you don’t go to Church anymore and the person that finds out does go to Church, it’s like they make a big to-do about it, and it’s really no one’s business on what someone does with their time. I had to leave to protect my sanity, and I also had to leave because I could no longer support a Church that is filled with scandal.
I don’t know if you ever plan on leaving the Church, but if you do make sure to leave the Church quietly. Not everyone and their dog needs to know why you left the Church, this is a personal decision and it should be treated as such. Because, if you start telling people, some people who find out will give you so much grief over it, and to me that’s not necessary. You don’t know what someone is going through, and leaving the Church is a very personal decision, and it’s a hard decision. I know when I left the Church, I left as quietly as I could, because it’s no one else’s business why I left when I left. When someone leaves the Church, most of the time it’s because the Church has done them wrong in some area.
As far as how to remedy the situation, I hate to be the voice of negativity here, but, there’s no solution to this. As long as the Church continues to do what it does, there’s no way of stopping this. Again, the Church isn’t suffering for a lack of money, so believe me, they’re not going to change anytime soon. In order for the Church to change anything, there has to be a significant number (like 90%) of the people who go to Church throughout the world, has to come together, fly all the way over to the Vatican, and complain to the Pope, and that scenario is highly unlikely. Better to just cut your losses altogether and just leave, cause I doubt you’ll notice any change that’s significant.
I love and respect that you make this disclaimer : ) It shows that you are genuine.
Well lol, people should know that that I don’t do flowery responses or flattery. What you get is what you get with me.
- Are there areas in my life where I am “fake” or hypocritical?
Yes. Totally. I’ll admit that. My problem is other’s don’t and lie. I’ll admit I maybe watch tv shows I shouldn’t. I’ll admit I cuss too much and I’ll admit I’ve struggled with porn and all that. The thing is that I’m not a public figure and if asked, I’ll share my struggle. Not try to sweep it under the rug. I make a point of being honest as I can. I don’t live up. No one does, but it seems as if for some people they’d rather just hide their faults and hope no one notices rather than just accepting they screwed up and rebuilding, even if that means they don’t get to have the life they want, or don’t have the image they desire.
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Are there unconfessed sins I have committed that if they were to come out, it would scandalized others who look up to me.
I’m sure there are. Again I’m not a public figure but I’m also someone who won’t hide they screwed up. Maybe that’s prideful of me. More and more I admit I have a meek kind of pride as I’m not the most confident person or the best communicator or hardest worker, but I guess I put a lot of value on being honest and true but also not trying to put on airs or act like I’m all holier than thou. Maybe that’s just my false humility speaking, but I guess I feel at times like I’m the only real humble person out there who isn’t trying to hide something. Yes I’ve sinned and caused scandal. I’m sure we all have, but I don’t try to make it seem like I’m perfect and if anything I know i’m far from it. Thing is I don’t expect to be a saint or hope my sins get hidden like some seem to do.
3.Have I deflected the blame or ever lied about something I have wrongly done?
Again, yes. Heck my wife says that in spite of me being very honest I can’t even admit when I’ve eaten the last of a certain food in the fridge. Yeah, I’ll admit some things I struggle with. However, I also think that in a way it depends. If Barron instead was known say for just having a sailor mouth, or a temper, that’s forgiveable and honestly not that big of a deal. If he’s looking at other men while claiming its wrong and acting on it, that’s a bit more serious. Same for example if someone talks about chastity but goes around sleeping with whoever, or giving to charity but steals money to buy him or herself fancy stuff. So yeah I’ve had struggles. Everyone does but no one wants to be vulnerable.
“4.Have I put human individuals on a pedestal, only to be disappointed by them when they fall? Do I put my trust in men more than I put my trust in God?”
I’ve totally done this and I thank you for bringing this up. I think sadly this happens to so many people. The problem is, it seems as if rather than just living our own lives, people instead just use ignoring such behaviors as a kind of defense. It basically sounds like some persnickety teacher telling me to mind my own business, which is true, but in the end it just means some people get away with it. That being said, yeah I put too much trust in individuals. I’m human. Also, I’ll be honest, but even God would admit its easier to relate to people than to him. Also, if that’s the case, why even care about what other people do or think? At that point why not just sell all my posessions and go live out in the wilderness and just talk to God in my own way? I don’t know, but I will admit I struggle with this because I like feeling that I’m not alone. That its not just me and God on the right side. That being said, at times it feels like maybe people don’t care about God, or again, he’s not the God I was taught about that yes is merciful, but also just. Seems like everybody loves the justice part until they get caught, then they turn on the water works and say they need mercy, when in reality if they’d never been caught they’d go on doing whatever. Its hard to trust a God who seems to be less black and white and more or less just a gray blob who just does whatever a person wants. Like I said, I don’t not believe in God but I wonder if the version of God I was taught isn’t really how it is but how people want it to be.
5. Do I see God as simply someone who rules over me or do I see Him as a loving Father who delights in my relationship with Him (which includes love, obedience, trust, forgiveness, and so much more that this world does not offer me?
This is hard for me because in some ways God does rule over me. However I feel its important to follow him. Not that I’m just some heartless rule follower. If anything I want to love God with all my heart and soul. The way I feel I do that is by following the rules he established and doing so out of love. I don’t just follow the rules just so the sky bully doesn’t send me to the bad place. However, I also feel like even if there was no God I’d still be a good person. I’d be against abortion. I’d be against cheating on my spouse. I’d be against drinking too much or using drugs or using harsh language. I tend to find that those are good rules in general, but its great that God happens to agree with them. For me, just saying Amen and then not following God is just hollow and fake and sadly I see fake people and phonies every where and maybe the only good thing is I can kind of deal with it now as a man in his mid 30’s with two kids and a wife. Still doesn’t mean I don’t see all the BS around me. Even the otherwise good people have something wrong with them. I guess my thing is that I follow God because that’s what I know to do. I will be honest other than going to mass I don’t know if I do much but I don’t know if it really helps. Plus I think actually following God’s rules is better than say, sinning all the time but thinking rattling your beads or stepping into a magic box to get your sins wiped away is a great way to go. Nothing wrong with the rosary or confession but I want to use such things genuinely and I don’t know if many people if any do, because if they did, they’d realize how terrible they really are.
Sorry for the long post, but I do thank you. I’m not as bitter about this as the post about this came from a “catholic” writer affiliated with New Ways Ministries, which even the USCCB has criticized , so you know its bad. For all I know maybe this is just fake, or who knows what happened. The hacked thing could have happened but its also a really dumb way to handle it but who knows what happened. Either way, thank you.
Peace to all,
Any scandal becomes from the image of a false father, I believe.
Blame the serpant for what?
Creating love? now would not that be the story?
The Serpant only told a lie and truth in One Line, “Surely you will not die.”
Peace always,
Stephen
You remind me of Holden Caulfield in “The Catcher in the Rye.” Have you ever read that book?
I have. I have a kind of weird relationship with the book because I find Holden Caulfield to be a bit of a liar about himself, but I do think he kind of sees what’s going on and all the bull going on. Granted I worry now that maybe I’m sounding immature. I’m actually reading it again. I read it every few years.
I’d say that a huge number of us have. Not only were there predator priests in parishes (and there still are some), but the fact was usually concealed from us.
I’ve heard priests say that everything that happens to us is God’s will. So people who are abused by priests are supposed to accept it as God’s will? Such abuse didn’t happen to me, but I don’t accept it as God’s will for anybody else either.
The Church has lost the trust of a lot of people and knows it. When the Son of Man returns, will He find any faith on Earth? If He returns today (Come, Lord Jesus!) He will, but I don’t think He was asking just a rhetorical question. People fall away, and people are driven away. Woe to Him through whom scandals come, Jesus said.
So, before I say what I’m about to say, please know that my aim is not to change minds and hearts. Believe me, I’m well aware of how special my beliefs are compared to the general public.
But, thank you Literalman for saying what you just said. The evidence is literally in front of people’s faces all the time, and so far, little to nothing is being done about it. I don’t read about this in The Sunday Review, which is a Catholic newspaper for the area I live in. I don’t hear of Priests being held accountable for their actions. I mean the fact that they are ruining a little kid’s life, kids that aren’t even old enough to completely innerstand what is going on, is not only against the law, but you just ruined an entire family, cause when you hurt one member of someone’s family, you hurt the entire family!
My hope is, there is being something done about it, they’re just not broadcasting it. Although, it’s awfully interesting that this kind of thing is still going on. So, if they are trying to do something about it, they’re doing a very mediocre job at best.
I know we probably disagree on a number of things Literalman, and that’s ok. I don’t expect anyone to be a carbon copy of me. That’s just wishful thinking. But, at least you’re not pretending that problems don’t exist in the Church. You have my complete respect Literalman, and you have given me a reason to trust you.
Mercy is not a bad thing, but to continually give the same person mercy over and over, kind of seems like the person who is being shown mercy is taking that for granted. It’s time for something to be done! Not years from now, not months from now, the time is NOW!
Peace to all,
So true, Jacob, we know we can’t judge or preach, we can only generalize for all becoming again through the faith of Abraham correctly..
How else can we truthfully say logically Mohammad is right, One God
Not judging or preaching and only in generalization, we know mistakes have been made and not judging.
First and third Forefathers of the The Trinity failed in understanding the Holy Spirit.
The logic became from the Didache, the unfinished works from the Gospel of Mark
The Vatican secret is there are no secrets. The Vatican just does not understand the mind of God, OmniLogically. Where is Stephen? I know, they never ask me.
To help the church understand the Holy Spirit is the Holy Family pre-existing becoming again One God in being The Family.
We are the UFOs retraining, the church in logical undefiled intelligence training all in understanding the Mind of God.
Peace always,
Stephen
I have just joined the Forum, and am glad to find this thread as it is where I’m at in life myself. I converted to Catholicism in my twenties and have had a strongish faith throughout my fifty years since then. In my last two parishes, the priest was accused of offences against children, but in each case nothing was found against them. In my present parish, the former parish priest has been sentenced to prison for grooming two pupils & committing sexual offences with them. This has severely shaken my faith. What bothers me is that when I came to the parish, this priest was preaching against the modern zeitgeist re sexual matters, and yet all the time, he’d been cunningly working on the feelings of two teenagers and ruining their lives for them. How could he - did he believe, but think he was justified in some way in his conduct, or was he just a cynic? And how can I ever again trust that my parish priest is sincere?
The way I’m coping with these doubts at present is to remember that the church is made up of human beings and that’s bound to include a quota of knaves and weaklings. I also remember what Christ said (Luke 18:8) - ‘When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on earth?’
And along with that, I remember that my awareness of the existence of God is visceral, whatever I think of the Church and its dogmas. And further, even if sometimes I have doubts about the claims of Jesus, I know in my heart that he is the Teacher of Teachers for human beings, and there is no literature in any other religion or philosophy that speaks to the heart like the Gospels do.
So I am keeping steadily on the road even though I’m tired and footsore. I am lucky, though, that my doubts never affect me when I’m at Mass and I am always aware of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I hope to goodness that this feeling persists, but even if it didn’t, what would be the point of giving up now when the end is in sight for me?
As St Peter puts it (John 6:68) ‘To whom should we go, Lord? You have the message of Eternal Life.’
The sex abuse scandal of the Roman Catholic Church is of the magnitude, longevity and worldwide pervasiveness of such a degree that it’s among the worst crimes committed on humanity in history. Not only because of the heinous crimes themselves, but also for the foul deception committed on the world. This, not from something known and accepted to be a criminal network, but from something holding itself up to be THE bastion of morality that all humans should align with or feel shame and fear for deciding not to.
The scope of the crimes and its cover-up at the highest levels created a gaping wound on humanity that should be remembered historically in perpetuity. There should be actual religious orders formed for the sole purpose of perpetual prayer of atonement for the sex abuse crimes (“sins”) of the Catholic Church, but there aren’t.
The argument often heard post-scandal that “The Church is made up of humans who are sinners, just like all humans are sinners.”, or “The clergy are imperfect people too.” is deeply offensive for the reason, again, that clergy are held to a higher moral standard. The claim post-scandal that they’re just people and shouldn’t be treated any more harshly isn’t legitimate. You can’t have it both ways. I personally do not feel that The Church has acted post-scandal as remorsefully as it should. Not even close. The Church hasn’t put on sackcloth and hasn’t sat in ashes (figuratively).
If a medical doctor was giving bogus medical care to trusting people but the care was hurting people, the doctor can’t legitimately claim “Even though I’m a doctor, I’m just a person, so I shouldn’t be judged any more harshly than a regular guy giving bogus and harmful medical advice to trusting people.” Wrong. There is a difference. There is a higher standard.
The layperson hasn’t announced to the world and insisted that he’s literally THE highest and most perfect form of morality there ever was and ever will be; The RCC has. As humans, we are all hypocrites at times. However, the degree of hypocrisy of The Church is on a level that’s unmatched, precisely because of its claim that it’s the one and only true church of Jesus Christ himself.
There should be an enduring pall of sadness associated with the Roman Catholic Church because of the crimes, their scope and the cover-up and lies.
You’re not being a “downer”, @brunohusker , you’re a victim of deceit who has every right to continue to talk about the scandal. Humanity should never forget the scandal in a similar way that humanity should never forget the Holocaust and other atrocities of global scale.
I agree with this and almost everything else you said (I don’t know whether there need to be special religious orders for atonement, but I’m not against that either). When the Bible says that God will remember our sins no more, I wonder whether that actually means He will forget that they ever happened or that He will not count them against us. Will all the sins in the Bible be forgotten by God and us? I hope I will still be aware of things that have been done to me and that I have done to others but without the pain associated with the memories. I hope we will know what we have forgiven others for and what sins of ours have been forgiven, not think that there is nothing to forgive. I hope I will forgive but never forget.
However, I think of all the great Priests who are tainted by the sins of their brother Priests who have done evil things. I was helping out with a retreat once and the Priest, whom I had only just met, shared that he feels like everyone lumps him in with the bad Priests. And he feels judged by culture for being a Priest.
I Pray for all the good Priests who are judged for sins they have never (nor would ever) commit.
I believe God is ridding the Church of the pervęrts. There will always be evil in this world. And it won’t happen overnight, but I have hope that God is hearing the Prayers of His faithful.