With the anniversary of Auschwitz , I saw a lot of the reports on the bad actions done there . There was also the story of all the German’s that worked there. Realizing that most of these folks never received judgment on earth I wondered if they got a pass at the gate. I had been taught in Sunday school that repentance is not a simple “opps sorry “ . Considering the spectrum from actively participating in the crimes, knowing first hand the crimes are happening, generally knowing the crimes are happening and ignoring these facts, having an idea that really bad things are happening in the name of your government but not finding out thru speaking out against the crimes(sins) to leaving the nation you cannot be part of to actively fighting against the crimes. Somewhere there must be a dividing line between salvation and damnation. Now that America is following this path of hate snd murder how do Christian Americans have to behave to achieve salvation? “ If I were to remain silent , I would be guilty of complicity “
You bring up a few things here.
- Culpability on the part of those who work for a government committing evil acts
- Culpability on the part of citizens of a government committing evil acts
The simple answer is, we don’t know how God will judge these individuals truly.
My Daughter’s Godmother studied in Austria and visited Auschwitz while over there. They got to go in a few places where others are not typically allowed to go. She said it was very fascinating and also very sad. They still have piles of shoes that had belonged to those who were gassed.
Saint St. Maximilian Kolbe, a Polish, Franciscan and Priest volunteered to die in place of a stranger at the Auschwitz concentration camp. The man had a Wife and Children and St. Kolbe did not. But, sadly, when Franciszek Gajowniczek had returned home, his sons had died in a bombardment. The man did go on to live until he was 94 years old.
Some of the greatest Saints come out of the Histories darkest times.
I am not someone who believes that we are ultimately responsible for the sins of others, however, we are called to love, support, and care for others who are in need.
I hope this helps. Welcome to CatholicTalk by the way : )
Hi Kevin,
So first of all, welcome to the forum! I think you’ll like this forum, cause as an ex-Catholic myself, I love this forum. The people here are very nice, and the discussions are wonderful here! I think you will enjoy your time here.
So, keep in mind, I am ex-Catholic, so when I give you my answer to this, it might not be what you believe in. Which is fine, but you are asking the forum this question, so all I’m doing is answering it.
So, the way I view it is this. So everyone has Free Will right? Which is a wonderful thing. It means that people can freely choose what it is they want to do. And because everyone has Free Will, and because you cannot force anyone to do something against their Free Will, then that means that the only person you have to worry about is yourself. What someone else chooses to do, not only is it not up to you to decide what someone else chooses to do, but it’s also not your responsibility on what someone else chooses to do. If you were able to control what other people do, then yes you would be held responsible for the actions of that other person, but there’s no way of controlling what someone does, so therefore what someone else does is NOT a reflection on you. At the end of the day, you are only responsible for you (and this includes what it is you say and do, because what you say and what you do has an effect on others). Cause if you were able to control what someone else does, then Free Will is not free…
But welcome to the forums!
I think you used the right word, spectrum. I think that the dividing line is repentance and God’s mercy. In Nazi Germany there were a lot of people who didn’t know what was happening to the Jews and a lot who didn’t want to know. In the United States today we have the same situation with abortion and other horrors.
We also can vote and contact our elected and unelected leaders. We can’t have a big influence on every issue, but we can work to make a difference. A favorite tactic of pro-abortion demonstrators is to say that we have no right to speak about abortion unless … and they have an endless list of troubles in the world. What did you do for the babies in Gaza? Are you adopting babies? One man who was praying with me outside the abortion clinic said he adopted three. The answer: but you don’t adopt them all.
So I think that I have to look for ways to bring God’s love to others and to speak up for them. A few years ago I read that people who are doing a lot tend to ask themselves whether they are doing enough, and people who are doing little or nothing tend to brag to themselves about how much good they are doing.
“I was hungry and you fed Me” or “didn’t feed Me.” Well, both are true of me. One priest said in a sermon that the best you can say is that we’re good goats (when humanity is divided into sheep and goats). And you asked, where will the dividing line be? Did I never feed Him? Did I always feed Him? God have mercy on me. And did I answer His call? Yes, but not every time. God have mercy on me. But I think that “I didn’t know, and I didn’t want to know” will be a dangerous answer.
Hi, yes I feel it is important to get word out about the possibility that we can share in the sins. Sister Ellen taught that to know of a sin is to be guilty of the sin. Yes we cannot know how God will judge but we have the rules and we state that judgement is related to obeying those rules. Seeing the personal in Auschwitz clerks, cooks and wondering how they fell in the spectrum of judgement I cannot imagine letting my fellow Americans commit these sins without some guidance. Now that we are back to things like the Fugitive Slave Act and operations wetback I feel the need to speak out. Vietnam war, invasion of Iraq and climate change I feel Jesus wants us to help our fellow humans choose the correct path, I bring it up in case my path is wrong.
Hi, i went to catholic school so that is the base . Yes free will is important. Thus if damnation can be from their acts or silence without them knowing it has an affect on their soul does this not mean we need to point it out. As I have written the butcher who supports “ the final solution “ vs the butcher who has no clue would surely have a different experience at the gate, thus I feel it is important to have the discussion. Does the American watching and knowing of the killing of a refugee by his government get off for lack of knowledge or does he share in the sin as Sister Ellen said. I work for a one planet one people world I believe Jesus wants.
Well hello again Kevin! So glad you responded to me.
So again, I want to reiterate that I’m not a Catholic anymore, so that’s my disclaimer when you want to have a discussion with me.
So, I think it is, to a certain degree, important for people to know what’s going on in and around their community. I mean, obviously Source (or God) would want people to be more informed and be knowledgeable enough to make good choices. So, as far as letting Americans (cause I’m American as well) know what is going on, I’ m not against that at all.
What I was talking about was geared more towards results more than anything. Because, let’s be real here, you can tell someone something all day, but unless they agree with you or are open to trying to innerstand your point-of-view, more than likely they’re probably going to write you off because you oppose their beliefs, or are just not convinced that what you’re telling them is true. And honestly, at that point, it’s really hard to convince them that these actual events are actually happening. So, when someone chooses not to listen to you, and as a result of that does nothing about the current state of our world, the result of what they choose to do is not a reflection on you.
Lemme give you another example, and again you probably will disagree (which is fine, we can’t always agree on everything), but I’m going to give you my Father for example. So, one day I just decided that I didn’t want to go to mass anymore. And, by the time I decided this, I was already not really a practicing Catholic, in fact I’ve kind of moved on from Catholicism at that point, and I was really going to Church for the wrong reason, which was to not hear from my Father why I didn’t go to Church. So one day I just decided not to go. Well, eventually my Father caught on, and he said “Why don’t you go to mass anymore?” And I said to him “Because, I think I need to be more honest with my loved ones, and if I’m being real, I don’t really believe in Catholicism anymore. That’s not to say that I don’t believe in Source (or God) and that I don’t believe in Jesus Christ, cause I believe in both, but my beliefs have changed to where going to Mass no longer does anything for me. And if I’m being honest, the only reason I kept going was so that I didn’t have to have this conversation. But, I think now we can have this conversation.” And of course we talked at length about why. But, what I’m trying to get at is, after we had this conversation, I spoke to his girlfriend Mary-Ann (Mom and Dad are divorced) about why my Dad is treating me differently and his girlfriend said “Because your Father truly believes that when he dies he’s going to have to tell God why one of his children left the Church.” And I said to her “But, that’s not going to matter. I chose of my own Free Will not to attend Church anymore, so why he thinks that is sort of weird to me. He’s not in charge of me anymore, I’m 36 years old, so….whatever it is I decide is on me, not him.” And Mary-Ann said “Well he knows that, but he feels like he’s failed you.” There’s more about my Dad and I’s relationship that I’m not sharing with you, cause it’s kind of rocky and it’s more than just me leaving the Church, but do you see what I’m getting at?
Basically, yes I agree with you, that we should point these things out to people and let them know that these types of things are happening. But, as far as the actions that someone else takes, you are not responsible for. I’m not sure where it says in The Bible or according to Oral Tradition (although it might be in The Bible or Oral Tradition) that you’re in charge of someone else’s soul. It was my innerstanding, at least when I was Catholic, that when you are judged, that God is only going to judge you and your actions and not someone else’s actions. But, if that’s not really correct, then God bliss you, cause I couldn’t be in a religion where God is judging me for something that someone else did, because that’s way beyond my control. I can tell someone till I’m blue to the face to not do something, but unless they agree with what it is I’m saying, they’re going to do what they want to do anyways. So, if God’s going to judge me all because someone else didn’t agree with something I said and didn’t take action to stop this kind of thing, then it’s probably better I’m not in a religion that thinks I need to change someone’s heart or mind.
God bliss you!
I would caution you, however, not to make politicians your god as an answer to all the injustices in this world.
There has always been wars, since the fall of man. And we should be good stewards of the environment, which we have been gifted, but not make environmentalism our religion.
This is not our home (Hebrews 13:14).
O Cade … Did you mean to say “not to make politicians your god”?
That doesn’t necessarily apply to children. I’ll give a disturbing example: when I was in Catholic elementary school, we used classrooms to change our clothes for gym—boys in one room, girls in another. And one time I saw that one of our parish priests was in the room with the girls, watching them change. Two of the nuns saw it too from the hallway and were whispering. I hope they told the pastor. But I was just a kid, and if I’d had to do or say something myself I wouldn’t have known what to do. But knowing of it didn’t make me guilty of it.
Peace to all,
The Tree of Knowledge creates fallible choice and the Angels that followed God still had defiled choce in their spirits.
The Christ fulfilles faith and morality though the Choice becoming again with no chance of failure and how mankind saves the angels, I believe.
Peace always,
Stephen
Hi, yes free will is an important part of the Christian teachings (why the abortion issue does not go to) . It was from the Epstein comments about who else knew what was happening and did zip. Then to see first an article on a photographer whose pictures from Auschwitz showed normal activity, secretaries interacting with Gestapo officers, cooks and food service people. As I watch America become this I fear for the souls of the people on the fringe. In earthy fashion we are still guilty of crimes against laws we are unaware of. As this issue is to many fuzzy it would seam the leaders should address it. The Pope is addressing the general topic. It was funny when I wondered what did mankind do in a world long ago that was so bad God killed all but 8 of the human population. Not that I believe that story . But the net references a violent world biblically . I see Joe at the gate and Peter informing him of his damnation. Especially politician. I email my senator every day with the killings in the combat zone. If I am forced to listen too many times a day to how well the wealthy are doing in the stock market then he should hear how many humans die from our murder machine. Retired and get to listen to BBC and NPR all morning in my studio while I do art so it causing a lot of thinking. I do want the earth to become a good place and all souls to be saved.
Yeah. I know we don’t see eye to eye on probably a lot of issues, but that’s something I agree with. The American Dream is starting to just become a dream and no longer a reality for a lot of Americans.
Something I’ve noticed, as time goes on, is huemanity seems to be stuck in some sort of time loop. Everyday you’re seeing us repeat History, but in a different way. And it’s been like this for a long time. The war in the U.S. is no longer happening outside of the borders, rather the real war is happening within the U.S. It’s a Shadow War, one that goes on every single day, and most people are literally oblivious to this. Huemanity right now, as a whole, is in a pressure cooker, and that’s because we’re going through growing pains right now. It’s only gonna get worse before it gets any better, the economy’s not recovering well, inflation seems to be jacking up prices to unbelievable amounts , and just being able to survive nowadays is getting increasingly harder and harder. At the end of it all, we know that victory is ours, but till that day comes, we must remain vigilant.
Your wish for Earth to become a good place and for all souls to be saved is beautiful. I wish the same for all of mankind. And I don’t think most people would disagree with you, I think we all want world peace. I just know there’s a lot of people who are very upset. I mean, here in the states you’re hearing about people living in their cars, which was unheard of when I was growing up in the 90’s. In the 90’s, most people had a home, and maybe the home wasn’t anything spectacular but it was still a home. Now, people are lucky to even be able to afford a home. I’m 36 years old and I still live with my Father, and unless the economy somehow turns around, I’ll probably be stuck living at home. Which isn’t necessarily terrible, but this isn’t what I really want, to be honest with you. I just know that when this life of mine is over, I’m going back to God. God and Jesus have been a constant love in my life, it’s the only love I have left really.
It’s very nice to have you here Kevin. I hope we can have fruitful discussions on God. You’ll find that my beliefs are different, but you’ll also find me having discussions with others. If anything we can agree to disagree, but I agree to what you’re saying. I just hope we’re not too late to restore America to the land it once was. But till then I’ll be praying and looking forward to a better tomorrow.
I’m Jacob by the way, but you can call me Jake.
Jake, cool. One joy I find in life is the lyrics of Jackson Browne song. He has about a third about relationships, a third about politics and a third about spirituality. Gets some positive vibes going . God bless
Peace to all,
Doctor my eyes. so true, KevinJThrowe, Jackson Browne makes it all too clear.
Jesus asks, “Whose face is on the coin?”
Man, Renders to Cesar and God.
Caesar must also render to God.
And we are not judging or preaching, but we are only generalizing through the faith of Abraham becoming again in all one family.
What is the unforgivable sin? Some ask?
To understand blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, we must understand the Holy Spirit IS the Family of God.
Peace always,
Stephen