I don’t like to see Jesus on the cross. It is painful to me to see him this way. We can see him giving the sermon on the mount. We can see him stopping the storm over the waters simply by commanding the storm to stop. We can see him healing the sick, restoring eyesite to the blind, preaching in so many ways, turning over the tables in the synagogue, breaking bread at the last supper. But why do we keep him on the cross. As we love him, let us take him down from the cross and cleanse his wounds, embrace him, care for him. Just love him because he offers us eternal life. We can accept his offering without keeping him on that terrible cross. He can save us without being on that terrible cross. That’s one thing that troubles me about this custom of seeing Jesus in this way. He has the power to free us without keeping him on the cross. Yes, it occurred. But he came down. Why do we have to keep him there?
I agree, especially since the cross symbolizes death.
Peace to all,
Logically, Jesus on the Cross becomes the New Living Sacrifice from Sacrifice through Penance forgiven for all through the Christ becoming again for all glorified and transfigured in all One God.
Rationally, The Christ is more than Just Jesus. Jesus is conceived from the Powers of the Incorruptible Holy Spirit Family through the created souls of all through the Immaculate Flesh of the New Eve Virgin Born for the New Adam becoming The Christ in all mankind. Virgin Born is from Family Powers preexisting souls through the Baptized Immaculate Flesh of the New Eve for all becoming again from rebirth and salvation through Holy Spirit Incorruption for the Jesus becoming through the New Adam from Spirit Incorruption in all through the Christ for all becoming again in all One God.
Logically, Rebirth is flesh nature immortalization becoming through Holy Spirit Incorruption in One Body through the Christ in all mankind becoming again glorified and transfigured in all creation One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I believe.
Peace always,
Stephen
I agree, but of course Jesus came down from the cross and walked amongst his disciples. And of course that also proves that he never died……which in turn shows that the spirit is eternal and never dies. In that sense one can take this pastime of Christ as a teaching……telling us that we also are immortal souls.
But I think that Christians, people who worship Jesus, are taught that Jesus had to suffer so that we could be absolved of the burden of sins upon our souls. At the same time, I do not believe that we have souls……but that we are souls……who now are housed within a material form, like a vehicle. But I do not believe that Jesus had to suffer crucifixion in order for us to be free of sin. Rather, I believe that the purity of Jesus is so powerful, that if one of us ardently cultivates the ability to embrace him within our hearts, we are automatically free of sin. And our job is to become so strongly fixed in that embrace, as a way of life, ongoing……that sin can’t touch us, any more than it can touch Jesus.
For example, when Jesus healed different people, as described in Bible, he would say, “Don’t talk about this to anyone. Just go about your business and sin no more.” In other words, Jesus relieved that person of the weight of their sins, in the form of sinful reactions, in the form of their invalidity…….although he had not yet been crucified. In other words it is not necessary for Jesus to undergo crucifixion in order for us to be spiritually uplifted and purified. All we have to do is embrace him within our hearts. Another way of saying this, is that even those who have undergone a baptism, which means opening their hearts to Jesus, such people can again fall into sin. Therefore they are saved, not by the crucifixion of Jesus, but they are saved according to their degree of intimate association with Jesus within their heart. The purity of Jesus is so great, so complete, that by the force of induction one can become influenced with the qualities of Jesus, as much as one adheres to that intimate level of spiritual fellowship. And yes, Jesus can absorb our impurity, but his spiritual purity can burn our impurity to ashes…….without the necessity of him undergoing a crucifixion.
But if I am taught to think and to feel, that Jesus had to undergo that horrific experience because of my sinful nature……..Well, just imagine if a child was taught to think that because of his horrible badness, his father, whom he loves, and who loves him so much, had to be killed so that the child could be forgiven for being such a bad boy……what would that do to the heart of that child? Certainly, he would carry a feeling of great anguish and guilt for the rest of his life. In this sense, I do not like the fact that the cross is on everyone’s neck, and the cross is there on every altar……..telling us that this had to happen because we are “bad”. I feel that this is not what Jesus wants to teach us. He does not want us to be burdened with guilt. Rather he declares, “Rejoice!” And by walking away from his tomb, he revealed that he is deathless.
So removed was Jesus from the terrible suffering (that you or I would experience if crucified), that his only thought was to ask God, with all sincerity of his heart, to forgive those who were crucifying him. Also Jesus told the man on another cross beside him, that they would be together in heaven. How could Jesus have been so thoughtful of others, so compassionate? I have read online that when crucified, one could only live for a few short hours, because the posture of crucifixion made it almost impossible to draw a breath. And yet, Jesus was in full possession of his faculties, and filled with compassion for his afflicters. Therefore his experience could not have been anything like you or I would experience.
I agree with you EarthStudent. The cross symbolizes death, and Jesus demonstrated eternal life. These are just some thoughts, not very well organized or expressed. But I say, let us love Jesus, not as crucified, but as eternally alive walking among us, sharing his compassion, his love, his enthusiasm, his teachings of eternal life, and his encouragement to “Rejoice”, as he himself was a living example of this rejoicing spirit. I think like this. I suppose some would accuse me of heresy. I sincerely hope I am not offending anyone by sharing my thoughts and feelings. I just believe that Jesus wanted all of us to celebrate our eternal life, without feeling that we could only have this at the expense of his terrible suffering. I do not believe Jesus wanted us to feel in this way.
I don’t like to look at the crucifix either. I think it’s supposed to make us uncomfortable, and I think that Catholic churches are required to display a crucifix and not only a cross without Christ’s body. At the Last Supper, Jesus said that His blood would be poured out so that sins may be forgiven. Why did it have to be this way? I don’t know. In the Garden of Gethsemane, He asked the Father (paraphrased), “Does it have to be this way?”
I was thinking after writing about the crucifixion in that way, that now I am in hot water. Thank you Steve for your kind and thoughtful reply. When I see the crucifixion, I feel an inclination to take Jesus down from the cross, as gently as possible, to bathe him, and dry him with the softest cotton cloth, and to ask him if there is something that he would like to eat or drink. When you say that you “think it’s supposed to make us uncomfortable”, do you mean that it could make one feel, “Jesus suffered in this way so that I can be relieved of the responsibility for my sins. Therefore if I have love for Jesus, therefore I should try my best to sin no more.” Is this the discomfort that you are referring to? In other words, I shouldn’t think that now I can sin and be forgiven. But rather, if I really love Jesus, I should try my best to live my life in a way that will give pleasure to Jesus. Is this the discomfort you are referring to?
Peace to all,
Logically the Will of The Father is to become again One Family from Sacrifice through Penance, forgiven for all.
I think that the crucifix is supposed to remind us of the cost of sin and the price of redemption. Many times I’ve heard people say, “I didn’t hurt anybody.” Someone wrote (I wish I had written down who said it), “That’s hard to know for sure.” I’ve hurt people, sometimes unintentionally. When I think of some of the things I’ve done wrong, it’s easy to see that I need God, and I trust in His mercy.
That’s a very deep answer, very subtle and grave consideration. I think that the original sin is the misuse of our free will, in the form of yielding to the temptation of seeking our fulfillment independent of lovingly seeking the pleasure of God with every thought, word and deed. That temptation is metaphorically described in the of decision of Adam and Eve, the cost of which places us outside of the Garden of Eden. In essence, that decision of the heart, is the only sin, from which all other sin unfolds. Therefore Jesus prescribes the complete antidote to sin, viz., to “love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, mind and strength”. Materially speaking, whatever one does in this world is good in one sense and bad in another. By walking on the earth, breathing, drinking water, we kill insects and microscopic entities. By making a clearing to. build a house, we cult down so many trees. By giving our attention and love to one person, we put aside the needs of others. But the solution or reconciliation is that if one loves the Lord, and consciously tries to please God in a heartfelt way, with our thoughts, words and deeds, we are absolved of the responsibility of sewing and reaping the result. The reaping is for those who sew seeds on their own behalf. But for one who sews as a loving servant of God, there is no profit or loss. Profit and loss is for the owner of the garden, not for the servant. That’s why Jesus gave his prescription to the Jewish clergy. The Jewish law books have hundreds of rules for living lives of piety. Hoping to trap Jesus, they asked him what is the most important rule. Because for everything we do, there is good and bad harvest (reaping). Jesus said the most important rule is to love God with all of our heart. If we put this into action, every thought, word and deed is meditatively done for the pleasure of the Lord. One who works in this way is like a yoked animal……not an independent creature. That’s why Jesus said, “Accept the yoke that I wear.” This means that he engaged in serving mood 24/7, acting not as an independent but as a loving servant. Trying only to serve the Supreme Master, one receives neither judgements of awards nor judgements of citations. Walking this narrow path is what frees us of all sin. Because the sin is not in the action, but in the demeanor of the heart. That’s why Jesus tells us that “It’s not by good works alone….”. Good work can make us pious. But God want more than that. He wants our love. How much? “Accept the yoke that I wear.” When the heart is completely yoked in that way, we become sinless, and progressively guided from within. But if the heart is not yoked in that way, even the most pious man does not qualify for eternal salvation. And the sinner on the cross beside Jesus is saved. Being a “good boy” is not what Jesus is talking about. Being a “good boy” is what the Jewish laws are talking about. (I was born in a Jewish home.) But Jesus came to give the next step. Not to love God officially, But to love God with all of our heart. The essence of sin is the independent spirit. This is how I understand the teachings of Jesus. But I am only a beginner.
Jesus on the cross (with the body of Christ) is a symbol of triumph over death! We see our sweet Jesus hanging on the cross as evidence of his suffering but are also reminded he was raised from death and was triumphant over death! It is a symbol of our faith!!! Jesus conquered death!!! Believe it or not!!!
Peace to all,
The Logical God from the Faith of Abraham is the Two Nature God from the Spirit Jesus Christ through the Flesh Mary Christ becoming One Body through both Christs from two natures spirit and life becoming in One Body of the Christ becoming again for all Creation in One God, I believe.
To me rationally, The Christ is more than Just Jesus. The Christ are two Christs becoming One Body, I believe. All souls are Created from the Father become from the Power of the Holy Spirit Immaculate Immortality in the New Eve through the Mother, Mary, Flesh Christ for Jesus becoming Baptized transformed for all through the Spirit Christ from the Incorruptible Holy Spirit through the created souls of all for the Immaculate Flesh to be able to become from death and resurrection for both natures becoming immortality through the New Eve for all from spirit incorruption in teh New New Adam in One Body through the Baptized Christs through all from Sacrifice through Penance forgiven for all becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I believe.
The First Christ on Earth is Mary when Mary says, “Let not my will but Your Will be done to me,” becoming The Immaculate Conception from the Annunciation through the Power of the Holy Spirit Family for Her flesh becoming from the spirit for the Immaculate Conception through the Will of the Father for Mary becoming the New Eve from the living waters of Baptism through Her Soul conceived from the Power of the Holy Spirit Family for all becoming sanctified through both natures, spirit and life becoming in One New Eve Body for all from the Power of the Holy Spirit through the souls of all for the flesh becoming immortal for all in the New Eve, I believe.
Peace always,
Stephen
To love means that you will the good for someone else, even if it means great sacrifice for yourself. When you see a crucifix you see the love that Jesus has for us. We must be constantly reminded of this, because if we love Him we must sacrifice for Him also.
Not only do I believe that Jesus triumphed over death. I believed that Jesus never died. For the soul there is never birth nor death. We have to have some basic understanding of spiritual knowledge. The first understanding is that “I am not this body”. This body is 70-80 % water, plus some combination of the material elements that one can dig up in one’s front yard. As scripture declares: “Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.” The body comes from the earth……and returns to the earth. This is called “composting”, just like we do with our vegetable waste. But the spirit soul is eternal. Material nature is never alive. It is called “dead matter”. And spiritual nature cannot die. Spirit is eternal, just as God is eternal. Spirit souls are part of God, just as all the cells in our body are individual……but simultaneously part of the whole body. In the same way we are eternally individual spirit souls, but simultaneously part of God. This is why material desires can never be satisfied by material acquisitions. Because we are not material. We can love matter; but matter cannot love us back. Therefore our love is meant for God. Not for “mammon”. And because we are part of God, when we focus our loving propensity on God, we begin to understand what David writes in the the 23rd Psalm; “My cup runneth over.” We cannot contain the spiritual bliss that that love of God affords. This is why the Christian saints are so indifferent to the material aspirations that we are afflicted with. They are not ascetics. But their hearts are overflowing with a sense of loving reciprocation with God and his son. A metaphoric example is given in scripture (Vedic scripture). God is compare to the tree of life. And we infinitesimal individual spirit souls are like leaves on this tree. Most of the “leaves” in this material world are trying to water themselves. But they are never satisfied. The billionaire wants another billion. And some few of the leaves want to water the other leaves. But they cannot be satisfied in this way. But if one of the leaves pours water on the root, all the leaves, fruits and flowers of the tree are satisfied. In the same way, when we give our love to God, this is the only way in which our hearts can be fulfilled. This is one of the reasons that Jesus instructed us, that “good works” (watering the other leaves on the tree) is an incomplete understanding of spiritual science.
The bottom line is that no one ever dies. We simply leave behind this material container. When we are inside, it runs around. We want to hug it and kiss it. And when the spirit souls leaves the body, no one wants to hug and kiss it. They say, “He is gone”, or “She is gone”. If this is true of us, how much more true is this of Jesus, who has the power to move mountains, command the storm at sea to desist, expell evil spirits, etc. Therefore Jesus teaches us, by his example, that the individual spirit soul is eternal. To increase our faith. The boulder before the tomb is moved away, and he walks, and talks among his disciples. But if you wish to keep Jesus on the crosss, I will challenge you. I cannot take that away from you. But if we love someone, we like to see them enjoying in a nice way, walking, talking, sharing. Jesus had the power to foresee the crucifixion. And he prayed to God, saying that he would rather not be subjected to this ordeal. But because of his love for our eternal Father, he said, “Not what I want, but whatever you want.” Therefore we can understand that Jesus was not looking forward to being impaled on the cross. So if we love him, perhaps it is not wrong to want to take him down and demonstrate our love for him in so many nice ways? Taking him down…….does not remove his triumph over death……wishing to take him down does not mean that we have no faith. It means we have some measure of love of him, and gratitude for all that he wishes to share with us. These are just my thoughts and feelings. I am nobody. Please don’t let me disturb your heart.
I like your psalm, Stephen. Hallelleulyah!
Exactly. This is my understanding of love…….taking pleasure in the happiness and well-being of others. The same applies to “Love of God”. It means taking pleasure in being pleasing to Him and to His son. This is real love. Not two years of marriage …..and divorce. Why divorce? Because the orientation is not love. The orientation is, “This did not satisfy MY desires.” But love is different. It is about wishing for the satisfaction of others, especially the satisfaction of God and His son. If one needs to see Jesus on the cross in order to be constantly reminded of the love that he has for us, I cannot say that this is wrong. But I believe in his infinite causeless love for us, even as I think of him healing the sick, distributing the loaves and fishes, preaching the sermon on the mount, saying to his disciples, “Suffer little children to come unto me.” As far as I can understand, the sacrifice that Jesus wants from us more than anything else, is his request for us to “love the Lord Thy God with all of your heart, all of your strength.” My understanding is that only one who loves God in that way, can become relieved of self-centered desires, so that he can begin to love his neighbor as much as he loves himself. I believe that this is the sacrifice that Jesus wants from us. He said that “good works” in a social sense were alright, but “Not by good works alone…..”. He told the Jewish clergy that he didn’t come to delete or any of the laws of morality and public service from their sacred books…….but that love of God was the #1 rule that he wanted to share with us. So if we want to do some sacrifice for Him, let us try to understand what he wants most of us. I don’t think I am putting my own spin on the teachings of Jesus. And thanks Thomas, for your thoughts and sincere feelings.
More than 25 years ago I read a book that had been recommended to me: The Spiritual Combat and a Treatise on Peace of Soul by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli. It had some good advice but struck me as overwhelmingly negative. Flee pleasure, seek suffering, consider what a worthless wretch you are and how good God is. Is that all? What about doing good? (That’s what my notes from 1997 say.) Before then and since, I have been ever more interested in doing good. I looked up the works of mercy and started referring to them before going to confession. About five years ago on Ash Wednesday a priest recommended that we concentrate on the works of mercy during that Lent. So I ask myself: Had I done everything I possibly could? Never. Had I done everything I should? Maybe. So “taking pleasure in the happiness and well-being of others” relates to this, I think. When I was in training to be a volunteer hospital chaplain, we were asked, “Why do you want to be a chaplain?” Part of my answer was that Jesus went about doing good, and I wanted to do good too. I want to be part of what He is doing. I also mentioned that I had been handled roughly sometimes in my life, and I felt like fighting back, but the best way to fight back is with love. So I try to bring faith, hope, and love to others and, as a priest suggested, look for opportunities to do good.
Hi Steve! “taking pleasure in the happiness and well-being of others”: From what I understand, this is the definition of “love” (as opposed to mundane infatuation which only lasts for…..”. My spiritual preceptor teaches that when this demeanor of the heart is focused on the pleasure of God and His son, that is the perfection of the loving propensity. “Good works” are good, but the ultimate good work is helping/encouraging others toward the path to eternal life. Being a chaplain is the highest benefit to others and the most pleasing to the Lord.
Scupoli: Never read him. However, in the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says that the desire for material pleasure is like a fire, in the sense that the more we feed that fire by trying to please our senses, the greater the flames become. But we cannot be without pleasure. So the solution is to find our pleasure in serving the Lord and His Son. I believe this is what David means when he says, “My cup runneth over" in the 23rdPsalm. Jesus tells us that rule #1 is to love God with all of our heart. Therefore what God wants most from us is our love. That is my understanding. The conclusion is that we don’t have to “flee pleasure”. If we seek God’s pleasure we become spiritually satisfied which frees us from looking for pleasure in all the wrong places.
We don’t have to seek suffering. There seems to be enough to go around. However, suffering is God’s way of helping us find Him. He seems to give us what we can handle. We are in “rehab”. Addiction to “mammon”. When everything seems to be going in our direction, we may not feel strongly inclined to seek God. But when things get tough, as beginners in spiritual life, we tend to become more serious. I think some of the saints, like Saint Francis, engaged in voluntary austerity. But austerity can also serve to make the heart harder. So moderation seems to be the ticket.
Again, humility is essential. The ungodly soul wants to to have for himself, the honor that is due to God. Envy. One of the symptoms of the most highly elevated spiritual adept is that he spontaneously considers himself to be the servant of others. Did I read somewhere that Jesus washed the feet of his disciples? At the same time, Jesus tells us to rejoice. In my experience, a joyful heart opens the door to a sense of living reciprocation with God. God is love, all-loving. So it seems that in order to experience His presence, we have to resonate with His frequency. Guilt and shame, and feelings of unworthiness have to be put aside, as they are not our inherent spiritual nature. Humility is required. But not self-deprecation. Indulgence in feelings of unworthiness may mean that Satin is playing with us. The best correction when feeling out of step……is just to get back in step
Yes, God is good. And He made us in His image. We have all the qualities of God in minute amounts. We can be godly. And He wants that - for us. And the highest good is to assist others in coming closer to God. And it’s not dry. If there is love in our heart, love for God, we begin to sense God’s loving reciprocation. Then the prodigal son feels like he has come home again.
These are some of my better thoughts. I am a work in progress.
A few Sundays ago, Catholic Christians all over the world celebrate “The Exaltation of the Holy Cross.” The Cross was an instrument of execution and a symbol of cruelty and shame, but Jesus transformed this symbol into a symbol of love and reconciliation.
St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:23, “We proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to [many].”
We have had a lot of tragedy in the past few weeks, but I believe these awful events can be transformed into healing and many conversions towards God.
They say that the moments in our lives when we experience the most joy, is when we are thinking less of ourselves and more about those whom we are spending time with. And as I ponder the moments in my own life, when I have experienced the most joy, it actually was when I was spending time with God and/or with my friends and my family.
Hi Cade! Respectful greetings! I simply cannot imagine what it would be like to have metal spikes driven through my hands and feet, with no anesthesia. I read online that people usually died within a few hours, because while hanging vertically by their arms, it put so much pressure on the rib cage, that they couldn’t draw an inhalation and died of suffocation. I think the governmental powers used these ordeals as a way of telling the people under their rule that they should not cause any trouble. I.e., using crucifixion as a political deterrent.
I think I understand you when you say, “Jesus transformed this symbol into a symbol of love and reconciliation.” I think you mean that because he has so much love for us, he is willing to suffer on our behalf. This is inconceivable mercy, kindness and love. Perhaps, Cade, you could explain the meaning of “reconciliation” in this context, so that I can understand more.
What does the quote from Corinthians 1:23 mean? Can you explain for me?
I live in the national forest, away from civilization and am out of touch with worldly affairs. What are the tragedies that you are referring to? But I do understand that when we have nothing material to make our lives seem pleasant, we are more inclined to open our hearts to God.
Yes, this is the demeanor of the heart that is most satisfying……when we think and endeavor for the happiness and well-being of others. Learning this is a blessing for me. And when we approach God in this way, thinking how we can be pleasing to Him (as opposed to asking God for things), I think this is the perfection of religious understanding. The sense of loving reciprocation that causes the cup of the heart to “runneth over”. (Psalm 23).
If the method of execution at the time had been the electric chair, I wonder if there would be electric chairs on the top of church steeples, people making the sign of the electric chair, people wearing electric chair necklaces around their necks, people singing the song “The Old Rugged Electric Chair”, etc.?