Scrupulosity and God's Suffering

Apologetics Moral Theology
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There are thousands of Internet articles and forum discussions about the problem of scrupulosity, but all of the ones I’ve read are about people afraid for themselves - they’re scared that God is going to send them to hell.

My problem is different. My problem is in regards to the Catholic teaching that our sins contribute to the suffering that Jesus experienced on the Cross. There is a common expression used - “every sin you commit is like another nail in Jesus’ Cross”.

Well, if every sin I commit directly hurts God - how can you expect me not to be scrupulous about whether or not action X is a sin? Am I supposed to just not care?

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Everybody wants to be a theologian (I don’t mean you). I was thinking about this. Is Jesus’s crucifixion necessary for any sin to be forgiven? Even a child’s minor sin? When I was in 1st grade, I raised my hand to ask a question, but the teacher (a Franciscan sister ignored) me. She continued talking and then asked, “Does anybody here want to hurt God?” Then she asked me (I still had my hand up), “Do you want to hurt God?”

Going back to the original question, Jesus said that His blood would be poured out so that sins might be forgiven. Apparently no sin would be forgiven without His sacrifice. But that doesn’t imply that every little sin causes Him as much pain as a nail. When I commit little sins, I am sorry and tell Him so. I’m also sorry for not being fully the person He wants me to be.

If I am really not sure that something is a sin, it probably isn’t, I think. If I do something I shouldn’t but it’s not forbidden, or if I don’t do something I should but it’s not something we are commanded to do, it’s worth considering. (If I don’t do something good that I could do, is it sinful neglect, laziness, or just old age?) These questions are, for me, an examination of conscience.

A useful question, rather than “Did it hurt God?” might be “Did it hurt anybody?” Whatever we do (or don’t do) for others is what we do or don’t do for Jesus.

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The anecdote is amusing, and it really demonstrates the point well. As an adult in that situation, I’d think - “If I keep my hand raised, I’m probably sinning by aggravating my instructor. If I lower my hand, I’m probably sinning because the class and I aren’t going to learn the answer to my question that God could be prodding me to ask. No matter what I choose, I’m probably causing God pain, now I need to figure out which option will cause him less pain.”

It doesn’t matter a whole lot if my sin is so great that I’m metaphorically hammering a nail into Christ’s foot or if it’s not so great and I’m “only” slapping him on the cheek. There are so many daily situations like this, it’s hard to believe Christ expects me to care about them. That doesn’t seem at all healthy from a spiritual and mental point of view. Yet, on the other hand, saying that I shouldn’t care that I’m hurting the God I love is ridiculous.

Most people don’t seem to have a problem with this, I just don’t understand what I’m missing.

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Peace to all,

He is the New Living Sacrifice through Penance for Forgiven of every sin through the Host becoming again in Communion with Him, all at every Mass for all becoming again One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, One Holy Family, OMNILogicalGod, faithfully, I believe

Peace always,
Stephen

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Jesus on Calvary said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke (23:34).

We should care when we sin. To say that sin does not matter, actually cheapens what Christ did for us (in love and obedience). So our sin does matter. But if God is able to forgive us, and we are unable to forgive ourselves, are we not then rejecting His mercy and grace?

Reconciliation is about admitting our faults, asking for our relationship to be healed, receiving forgiveness, and then showing that we are willing to put action behind our words (penance).

I think of it like a husband and Wife. Say a husband (or Wife) does something grave to harm the covenantal bond between them. His (or her) sinful behavior harms the unity between them (sleeping on the couch). If the one who has harmed the relationship is not truly sorry for his actions, then there can not truly be reconciliation or mending of the relationship. It takes the guilty spouse to humbly admit his wrong-doing and then ask for forgiveness. And if forgiven, he/ she must back it up by making an effort to show that he/she open to changing. But, let’s say that the forgiven party is unable to let him/herself be forgiven, can the relationship truly heal? No, because the one keeps bringing it up or allowing it to prevent him from fully re-committing him/herself to the other. Does this make sense?

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You make good sense, I think I’m the one who needs to clarify. I’ve worked through everything you’re getting across years ago. I’m not going to say I don’t have any trouble forgiving myself, but I am now capable of it.

The thing is, my problem is not in regards to forgiving myself for my past sins, but for my future sins. This comes in two forms:

  1. Scrupulosity - The commenter above, Literalman, typed: “If I am really not sure that something is a sin, it probably isn’t, I think.” I can’t understand how we can be so dismissive about the possibility of hurting God. If I’m not sure something in sinful, I assume that it is. Just in case. Isn’t this the right way? If we’re not sure the red button is the “self-destruct” switch or not, we better make every reasonable effort not to push it.

  2. Self hatred - I KNOW that I’m going to end up sinning again. In fact, I know in advance that every day of my life I’m going to fall short of my Saviour’s demand for perfection. Therefore, I know that every single day of my life I will be causing God pain. I love Him so much that I’d rather die than willingly cause Him any more pain, but I can’t! I can’t choose to die because then I won’t be able to accomplish the mission He wants me to. I won’t be able to carry out His plan for my life. So what does this mean? It means I have to put up with the fact that I’ll spend my entire life abusing God. Oh, unhappy man that I am! I once read a comment that Catholicism is a religion for masochists - after several years of worship I think I finally understand what it means.

And yet, I’ll repeat myself - the overwhelming majority of Catholics don’t seem to have this problem. There must be something I’m missing.

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Peace to all,

masochist, OMNILogical definition, The logical pain becoming to know the “Mind of God” becoming again in all One Family.

To me, the two Sacramentes from death to life are Baptism and Penance, from Sacrifice forgiven, from the spirit through the flesh for all becoming again One Family.

The Two natures are Baptized Sanctified and become immortal become from Sacrifice through Penence forgiven becoming incorruptible becoming again in all One Body, OMNILogically, One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I beleive.

Baptism allows the flesh to become from death of the flesh from Sacrifice through Penance forgiven in all for resurrection from the Power of the Holy Spirit becoming in One Body becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I believe.

Peace always,
Stephen

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I want to say that you hate sin and not yourself, but I recently heard someone say something that made a lot of sense. He said, battling sin is not the way we should look at it. Battling weakness is. We either give into weaknesses or we choose to overcome them.

Do not hate yourself. God made you. And He is [y]our strength:

“My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” — Psalm 73:26

"Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.” — Deuteronomy 31:6

“For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.” — 2 Timothy 1:7

“The Lord is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise Him, my father’s God, and I will exalt Him.” — Exodus 15:2

“Finally, draw your strength from the Lord and from his mighty power.” — Ephesians 6:10

“He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength.” — Isaiah 40:29

“May the Lord give strength to [you]! May the Lord bless [you] with peace!” — Psalm 29:11

I do not think the majority of Catholics care enough about sin. You are more spiritually mature than most. The fact that you are even pondering these things is awesome! The fact that you recognize that your sin hurts God and your relationship with Him shows that you are willing to grow in your relationship with Him and in Him.

I once heard Dr. Scott Hahn talk about how Catholics do not look at the Crucifixion as some who believe in penal substitution do. For they believe God looked at Jesus (who took on the sins of the world) with wrath, but the opposite is true. God the Father truly looked at His Son (our Savior) with nothing, but love (as He does for you and me).

The reason that you dread hurting Jesus is because you love Him.

I hope this helps.

God says, “Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.” — Isaiah 41:10

Thanks be to God, my Strength in times of weakness!

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Many years ago, a priest told me to focus on the opposite of whatever failing I had mentioned. In your case, this might mean doing things to please God and not worrying so much about hurting Him. The priest didn’t say that whatever I had done wasn’t worth worrying about, but that I was approaching it from the wrong direction.

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InvoSinner, here’s an example of something I was pretty sure was not a sin: when I was really low on money and had a family with four young children, sometimes I would go 5 miles on a train; the ticket cost probably less than $2. I knew that on a few trains, the conductor didn’t usually collect tickets from or sell tickets to passengers getting on near the end of the line heading away from the city. I would choose one of those trains to ride and bring the money to buy a ticket but hope that the conductor wouldn’t come around checking tickets. Do you consider me to have been dismissive of God’s suffering? If so, please do some extra penance for me. You could do something that would please God, such as paying the train or bus fare for someone who doesn’t have the money.

And here’s a personal insight into how God’s forgiveness works: my first wife dumped me after 40 years of marriage. I wasn’t a perfect husband by any means, but dumping me was wrong. A couple of years later she died.

While praying to God, I recalled a line from Charlotte Bronte’s novel “Jane Eyre”: “I forgive you fully and freely,” and I addressed this to my deceased wife, supposing that she could hear me. I was surprised by what came next: I thought Jesus said to me, “I forgive you fully and freely.” I asked a priest whether he thought that Jesus had spoken that to me. The priest said yes. He said that’s implied in the Lord’s Prayer

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Thanks guys for the replies. I got a bit emotional and needed some time to get my thoughts together.

Ultimately, when we strip away all the warm words, the problem seems to remain. On the one hand, you’re telling me that it is good that I care about the suffering that I cause God because it helps me grow in our relationship. On the other hand, you’re telling me that I should care less because I am forgiven through penance, God will still love me, and I can do good to somewhat make up for it. And really, what I get when I read this is that my life is supposed to be miserable (seeing as I’m constantly hurting God), but I can try to be less miserable by consoling myself with these tidbits (He forgives me, He loves me, I do good). This obviously doesn’t help much.

Do you consider me to have been dismissive of God’s suffering?

I can’t judge. You were in a difficult situation where there is rationale to assume that paying for the tickets could have been more sinful that not doing so. So, this is not what I meant when I typed that it seems we shouldn’t do something if we worry it might be sinful. But this is yet another example of where I’d be thinking “every single day I have to abuse God in order to feed my family.”

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I’m sorry that that is how you too what I had said. In some ways God’s ways are simple and in other ways, God’s ways are complex.

There are some Christians who might say, God loves you, so it really doesn’t matter what we do. Other Christians might say, if you love God, then you won’t sin. He humbles the prideful and he raises the lowly, but God never wills either to sin.

We live in a world that is so binary in their thinking. If you don’t vote for this guy, then you must be supporting the other guy. Never mind that neither can be true or both can be true.

Sin matters and God loves us. We are sinners and Christ, working in us makes us holy. God does not want us to be miserable. That isn’t the point. God wants us to love Him and to be loved by Him. God wants us to love Him and love our neighbor. It isn’t one vs. the other.

I once heard a very intelligent man in our Church, who knew the Bible better than anyone I’ve ever met in person and a very faith-full man say that guilt is not a bad thing. It is a byproduct of sin and God desires to free us of our feelings of guilt. Too often Christians think of guilt as a bad thing, but guilt is a natural response to an informed conscience. I’m not trying to make your head explode, I promise : )

God wants to give you joy. Saying that sin doesn’t matter may get rid of guilt, it doesn’t right the wrongs.

Going back to my analogy of a Marriage. If I convince myself that my Wife doesn’t really care if I do whatever makes me happy (I can cheat, I can drink and do drugs, and I can gamble our life’s savings or buy a bunch of stuff and have it delivered to my door in one day), but this is not a Covenant. As long as she doesn’t say anything, we can claim to have a happy Marriage. There is no arguments. No guilt. Everything is perfect. But, it is a lie.

On the other hand, I also know couples who make Marriage out to be harder than it needs to be. I would say that I have an easy Marriage (because for the most part, my Wife and I are evenly yoked), but it doesn’t mean that Marriage is easy. We are terrible at making decision, and this is where we are too much alike (and our Priest in pre-Marital counselling told us this would be the case : )

I know I haven’t said anything new here, but know that God wants to bring you joy and does not desire you to be miserable. He want to free you from sin, not for you to pretend that sin doesn’t exist (though one might think that will make them happy).

Have you ever heard a parent (usually the mother) talk about what a great kid their child is, but everyone else knows that the kid is the worst? What about when someone passes and everyone talks about how great the individual was, but in reality this individual made many, many poor choices in life?

Have you also known some of the most holy people who beat themselves up or confuses self-hatred for humility? And maybe you have been someone who does this.

God wants us dependent on Him. Jesus raised the bar so high that none of us can do anything of merit without Him. And it is His obedience to the Father on the cross and resurrection that merits us salvation and our cooperation with His salvific grace. Thanks be to God! : )

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“Paying for the tickets could have been more sinful that [than?] not doing so.” I don’t buy that (pardon the pun) one bit. A sin to pay for train tickets? No. My point was that taking advantage of a situation where I didn’t have to pay was not, I believe, a sin. I don’t believe that it caused pain to God. Also, I said that if something isn’t explicitly commanded or forbidden (now I should add “or clearly implied”) and it doesn’t seem sinful, then I think it’s not a sin. Whether it seems sinful to me is something I consider only if no teaching already applies. [I edited this to add two words I had accidentally left out: “or forbidden”.]

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Here’s an interesting thought - when we give birth to a child, we know that the child will sin. Of course, through our teaching, example, and prayers we will attempt to mitigate the amount of pain the human causes God, but the fact remains that fathering this human will result in terrible pain for God. However, Church teaching tells us that this is a wonderfully good action, and encourages us to father many children! Doesn’t this indicate that we should not care about the pain we cause God?

Sin matters and God loves us.

To say that we shouldn’t care that our sins cause God pain is not to say that sin doesn’t matter. The Bible clearly teaches that sin angers God, and we can surely say that sin harms others (or ourselves), harms the Church, and harms our personal relationship with God.

A sin to pay for train tickets?

I meant in the context of your financial situation at the time. This is getting off topic, but I’ll just say that from my perspective Church teaching clearly implies that trying to use a paid service without paying for it is sinful.

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“Scrupulosity, a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) focused on religious or moral issues, can lead individuals to intensely worry about having committed the unpardonable sin. This fear often stems from a misunderstanding of biblical teachings and a misapplication of scriptural passages to their own lives. The unpardonable sin, also known as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is a specific act of rejecting God’s grace and attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. However, individuals with scrupulosity tend to misinterpret this concept, fearing they have committed it even when they haven’t.” Google AI

Peace to all,

Google AI is logically failed not being able to see the Family as The Holy Spirit and missing is the Mother of God, Mary, God of Mercy through the New Eve for The Immaculate Conception in the Catholic Trinity together with The Father and The Son before creation was ever created was even created as The “Preexisting” through Three Gods, Mary, Jesus and The Father each Powers of God equally and Separately equally Gods in the Powers of God and together One God Family in being in One Divine Holy Family One God in being, I believe, OMNILogically.

To me the OMNILogicalGod has not quite reached the Minds of Earth, rationally and correctly even until today?

“scrupulosity tend to misinterpret this concept” ? Google AI

T0 me, OMNILogically, the Concept is From the Father through The Mother for The Son becoming the Christ in all mankind becoming again in all creation One Divine Spirit Family One God in being, OMNILogicalGod, I believe.

In all psychological generalizations, mental anguish and mental fear causes mental separation causing anxiety from the loss of the Holy Spirit friendship is lost though the unforgivable sin and returning to the friendship from Baptized transformed immortalized flesh and spirit incorruption sanctification through the New Eve from both natures from Sacrifice in Penance in all is all through the Words of Absolution, forgiven. Forgiven in all mankind and OMNILogically is the keys from the Kingdom through the Temple of our own “Corpus Christi” Body of Christ becoming for both natures, in all generalization becoming again in One Holy Holy Family.

To me, I believe, Scrupulosity is not being able to see the Holy Spirit as The Family of God preexisting, suffering becomes from not being able to see The Mother of God together with The Father and The Son in One Family of God preexisting in spiritual undefiled intelligence logic unfailing forever becoming again in all Baptized from the living waters through the flesh from the spirit becoming One Body in the Christ. And becoming again in all From Sacrifice through Penance all mankind becomes forgiven for all mankind becoming again in all glorified and transfigured in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, to me, I believe, OMNILogically and from The Faith of Abraham becoming again in and through all generalizations. I believe.

To me, capable of doing harm to anyone is not knowing the “One Way” path unfailing from infallibility undefiled logical intelligence conceived in the flesh of Jesus becoming in all through The Christ from The Mother in The New Eve for The Son, Jesus in The New Adam becoming through the Christ in all mankind following the pattern, “What would Jesus do in all cases from the fulfilled faith and morality through The Christ in all becoming again for all in One Holy Holy Family,” I believe in all generalizations.

He has already come to destroy death forever, I believe.

The Unforgivable Sin can no longer exist, OMNILogically, from Sacrifice through Penance, through the New Living Sacrifice in Penance Absolved through the Words of Absolution, forgiven in all becoming again One Family, I believe.

OMNILogically, what causes guilt from “The Unforgivable Sin” and remission from guilt from sin is faithfully correctly, understanding “The Holy Spirit.”

Peace always,
Stephen

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To me, I believe, Scrupulosity is not being able to see … From Sacrifice through Penance all mankind becomes forgiven

I’m sure that God loves me, and that He forgives me. I’m not worried about committing the “unforgivable sin”. I tried to make it clear in my OP - I’m not scrupulous over God punishing me or not forgiving me for every mistake of mine. What I’m scrupulous over is God suffering pain for every mistake of mine.

Still, we can draw a parallel. You’ve typed out that the cure for scrupulosity is to see that we are forgiven. In other words, it doesn’t matter about your mistakes, don’t worry about your punishment - God will forgive you! I 99% agree (what about purgatory? Doesn’t every sin warrant us more time there? Isn’t that what indulgences are for? Still, that’s my punishment, I wouldn’t care much.). But if we apply that same logic to my complaint, what do we get? It doesn’t matter about your mistakes, don’t worry about hurting God - He will forgive you!