Is the Bible the word of God?

As you wish…

Probably more than most people, including my family. And no, I’m not making that up.

That’s an odd question to ask, but no, I don’t. And I don’t see how this has anything to do with my afterlife. But I know Catholicism has changed since I last practiced it.

Not sure what this has to do with my afterlife, but no, I have no idea.

No I don’t. And I still fail to see why this is relevant to my eternity.

Yeah…so is there a reason behind all of this?

You’re right, in this avatar, I don’t. But outside this avatar where I’m not limited by this meat suit, I probably would be able to answer most if not all of those questions.

Yeah I do, and wouldn’t you like to too? It just really blows my mind how your God thinks. If this is how perfection works, I’d rather be imperfect cause this is terrible. Cause if I’m sitting in your shoes and I’m a Catholic, I don’t innerstand why we have to be so mysterious and not know certain things. Does that not sound off to you? Cause it sure as hell does to me! And as a Catholic, I’m given very little information to go off of about Hell. If Hell is such a terrible place, don’t you think that your all-powerful and all-loving god would give us any sort of clue about what causes a person to end up in Hell? I appreciate the Bible verse you gave me about the desires of the flesh, but that list of desires is incomplete, because I have proven (using your Bible verses) that there are other things that can cause one to go to Hell (and the example I used was unbelief). So there’s more to add to this list. As a Catholic, I would want to know, at the very least who is in Hell so then I can look up that person and see how they lived their life to cause them to end up in Hell. It would give me an idea of what a godly life would look like, but your god can’t even do that. So basically, here I am as a Catholic having to try to fill-in the blanks myself.

It’s not a bad thing to say that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth, but to say (as part of being the “truest religion”) that at the end of your life you’re either going to Heaven or Hell, when I see this statement made, then I expect to be given some knowledge on how to achieve Heaven and avoid Hell. And I’m sorry, but the Catholic Church in particular is so vague about Hell, it’s a little disturbing. We are told that “Oh, God desires for everyone to be in Heaven.” And in my mind, that’s a lovely sentiment, but to not be given any idea other than a few Bible verses and that it’s going to be eternal torment and suffering is not enough to go off of to avoid such a place. Your religion makes the claim that Hell is an actual place, and it’s a terrible place. I mean, the idea of Hell being a place of eternal torment is the most cruel thing you can do to a person. I like the idea of the phrase “The punishment should fit the crime.”, but I cannot think of a crime, no matter how heinous that warrants eternal torture and suffering. Because honestly, that doesn’t sound like a punishment, it sounds cruel, so cruel, and the worst part is, once you’re there you can never get out. I’m all for punishment when a person harms another person, but eternal torture and suffering? At that point it’s just cruelty, it’s not even a punishment anymore. It sounds like a parent with zero empathy would do to their son or daughter if they ever committed a crime. God is supposed to be all-loving but eternal punishment? That doesn’t sound like something a being who is all-loving would do. It’s like catching a fly in a jar, putting on the lid with no airholes, and watch it slowly suffocate. That’s cruelty, and kind of messed up.

Do I want know Divine Mysteries? Well here’s the thing, I know of Divine Mysteries, but I want to be able to solve them too. And I’m being as serious as a heart attack…this is my afterlife dear, this is my chance to go to Heaven (even though that coercion thing bothers me) so yes, let’s not leave anything a mystery, cause that only causes confusion. If God is love and if God is truth, then surely God would not hide anything. When you hide something it’s because you don’t want the truth to come out. So what is god hiding? This is the truest religion and yet god’s hiding something from us. Or does god not even know the answers himself? If that’s the case, then god obviously isn’t as perfect as I thought.

I’ve done all of that before, and believe me I tried almost everything I could think of to stay in the Church but, I couldn’t anymore. I asked God “God if you’re real then please answer some of the burning questions I have, cause I’m losing my faith!” And God didn’t do anything. God did what he’s famous for, he sat down, looked at me and did absolutely nothing. When I was a Catholic I prayed for 16 years for 1 friend. All I wanted was one friend, I didn’t care if it was man or woman, I just wanted a friend. And I prayed 16 years for one and it never happened. I was done with God by that point. I was so done. I’ve constantly had to struggle with my own family at home and I was getting weary and defeated. God let me suffer for 16 years, cause that was his plan for me. God planned for me to do nothing in this life but suffer. And so, after a while, I had it. I went back and studied and my days were filled with research and learning. It still is periodically, but I like studying these things.

I dunno if I’d say everything is for the good of us, but I kind of get it.

Exactly, this body is not mine nor is this mind. All this vessel does is house my spirit. It’s the only way to maneuver around in the 3rd Dimension but this body and mind is not mine at all. I’m a spirit having a 3D Hueman experience.

I agree, your god’s ways are alien to me, because it would seem like normal everyday loving Father’s don’t quite act the same way your god does. I will always fail to see how unaliving little kids, babies, and little children under ANY circumstance warrants someone to take an innocents life, literally. Any child both inside and outside the womb deserve to live, PERIOD!

Catholic Church are prolife, they defends life, from conception till death including the old .

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly,but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. 13 And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.

14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else’s scrutiny.
16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”But we have the mind of Christ.

Jude 17 But you, beloved, must remember the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 for they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, indulging their own ungodly lusts.” 19 It is these worldly people, devoid of the Spirit, who are causing divisions. 20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; look forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies.

Benediction
24 Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Oh, don’t get me wrong, it’s not so much your normal average person who is Catholic is what bothers me. It’s what your God does is what trips me up.

So the Spirit of God teaches us things? Like what? How to have 0 empathy for everyone and everything and just annihilate entire towns? Because that’s what God does.

Well, if it means not having a spirit that believes in killing others and sparing no one, no matter how innocent they are, then sure, I don’t mind being unspiritual in this instance.

Yup, cause not believing in your God makes me a scoffer and I indulge in ungodly lusts. Yup, all because of my unbelief right? All because I can’t be a part of the A-Team. Honestly it doesn’t bother me. I don’t believe in most of your beliefs anyways. Your God has shown that He doesn’t care about me, and your God has made it quite clear that the only path I’m on is one that leads to an eternity of suffering.

No thanks. I’ll worship my own God thank you.

You guys may be pro-life (which is awesome by the way), but you cannot convince me that your God is the same when there’s an overwhelming amount of evidence in the Old Testament that God takes out entire cities, and at one point the entire planet. This wouldn’t make me mad if God would’ve spared babies and children, but nope, those innocent souls are just collateral damage. To me that is so wicked it’s not even funny.

What about you? don’t you think what you do trips Him up, all the sins your commiting,it hurts him the most,God doesn’t like sin but loves the a repentant sinners ,for he died for all of us his life ,he thirst for the souls on the cross .

Am done here, there is no point ,in running around in circles.ill pray for you that God may lead to the fullness of truth through his mother Mary.God Bless

According to your God, yes, I’m sure it does trip him up. That’s the other thing too, God wants us to be in Heaven, but yet we’re born with this inclination to sin. The very fact that when we enter into these hueman vessels that we automatically have a disadvantage to achieving Heaven is really kind of sad. And it’s funny, because we are told that it doesn’t matter how much good we do, we are born sinners and we will die sinners. Well, what kind of pep talk is that? Your God desires for us to be with Him in Heaven, but yet He will always look upon us as a sinful creature? What good does that do for those of us who try to do the right thing? Is there ANYTHING we can do that can be good in God’s eyes at all?

I’m glad you can see that now we’re just going in circles. I agree.

Many people forget, and some simply don’t know, that at one point in time I was a Catholic. At one point in time, I was very devout. I would pray my rosary, went to Mass quite regularly (and not just on Sunday), and tried to live a good life. So, I’m very well aware of what Catholic’s believe to be true. Like it or not, unless I believe in your version of Jesus Christ, and as long as I believe that He is my Lord and Savior and believe that he died for all of our sins and repent, that I’m headed for Heaven. So basically, if I try to do everything by the book, and just simply don’t believe in your version of Jesus, I’m still headed for Hell due to my unbelief. And, it’s funny cause every so often I come across a Catholic who says that’s not true, and I go “Oh really? Well let’s have a discussion, what makes you think that?” So we’ll have a discussion, sometimes they’ll quote The Bible, or they’ll explain in their own words why they think I won’t be going to Hell for my unbelief, and it doesn’t matter which road we go down, I can always prove that those who don’t believe in your God and your version of Jesus are headed for Hell. And the sad part is, I didn’t have to look at your Bible to know that. All I did was use your own quoted verses from The Bible to prove to you that I know what it is I talk about. I don’t really care to use The Bible in proving anything, because as far as I’m concerned a lot of it is hearsay and a lot of those teachings were passed down orally. So as far as I’m concerned, that’s a very poor Source to quote from, but again, I proved to you that if you don’t believe in your God and your version of Jesus, that according to your religion, I’m going to Hell. And the verses you gave just proved that. So even if I was to live a moral and good life, my destination is still Hell based on my unbelief. I could’ve even told you that eventually the destination we’re going to end up is talking in circles, and we ultimately did.

Just because I’m not a part of this religion anymore, doesn’t mean I don’t know what it is I’m talking about. I know exactly what it is I’m talking about, I know all too well how Catholic’s are. I have a really hard time believing in what Catholic’s believe in cause of the logical inconsistencies that occur, specifically when it comes to God’s nature. If your God was true, then your God would not be all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful, all-present, basically all the “omni’s.” And I can cite multiple examples of why any of these attributes are not founded in any sort of truth, because it goes against the very teachings you all believe in, yet you all agree that he is all-knowing, all-loving, etc… You’re believing in something that makes no logical sense, and if there was a God, you could prove he was real using basic logic and reason, but your God fails those tests. Yes, God knows more than any of us, but I don’t think God would go against logic and reason. I mean, the very fact that the 10 Commandments are reasonable tells me that God is reasonable, but in The Bible He is anything but reasonable, at least the God in the Old Testament is.

Thank you for your prayers and God bliss you too.

You bring up some points that I’ve wrangled with myself, @EarthsStudent

From my understanding, The Church ultimately says:

  • God gives sufficient grace to all.

  • God gives the gift of faith to some.

  • Why some receive it and others don’t is a mystery.

  • But God is still just and loving.

  • If faith is a gift, then it’s not under human control.

  • If faith is not under human control, then a person can be morally sincere and still not receive it.

  • And that means salvation depends on something God gives to some and not others.

Hi Pax, thank you for your response. I always thought your contributions to the forum were always pretty good.

Look, I’m not going to b.s. anyone, I’m not perfect. In fact, I’m far from perfect, and from time to time I mortally sin. Is that something I’m proud of, hell no! Even though I don’t attend Church anymore, or even follow The Bible anymore, doesn’t mean I don’t want to try to be better. I recognize that I’m not better NOR am I worse than anybody else, and this goes for all huemans, not just me.

I just find the Catholic/Christian god to be very repulsive. I mean, here you have a god that is more than willing to unalive anyone, even if they have absolutely nothing to do with the reason why he’s unaliving them, he unalives them anyway. I mean, my God, even in the 10 Commandments he tells us not to unalive, but yet it’s ok to unalive because he’s god? Is god given some special dispensation to do that kind of thing? But the one thing that I can’t get over is the unalivement of babies (both in the womb and out of the womb) and children. Since when is it ok, under ANY circumstance to unalive a baby both in the womb and out of the womb, and children? It’s bad enough we have people contributing to the mass genocide of babies that are unalived every single year, why would a god who’s supposed to be loving do that kind of thing? If that is how perfection truly works, then I will stay imperfect for the rest of my days, cause unaliving a child is a very sick and twisted thing to do. These are literally innocent beings, they don’t even know how to shoot a gun. So why are we ok with god unaliving them, but when a hueman does it, it’s an ugly and nasty thing should do. We should put the same standard on god honestly. We should be appalled and we should not be labeling that stuff loving cause it’s not! Maybe on a different planet it would be loving, but here on Earth that’s just sick!

If I was to go back to being Catholic, before I would even think about going back to Church and such, I would want some concrete answers to the questions I have. And the answers have to make logical sense, and the answers should be reasonable. And I know, without a doubt that I wouldn’t come back to this religion because the answers I receive do not follow logic and reasoning, in fact, the answers I get sound more like excuses then they are rooted in any actual truth. I’m sorry, and you can throw Bible verses at me all you want, but the Catholic/Christian god is not all-loving at all. I’m not against punishment, but eternal suffering? No…sorry, there’s no crime I know of, even the most heinous ones, whose punishment would result in eternal suffering. Yes, the punishment should be very severe for the really heinous crimes, but eternal torture is just cruelty at that point. And once again, I use the argument of a loving Father. If a loving Father has a son who struggles with pornography addiction, you never hear of the Father, everyday, from sunrise to sundown, tormenting their son for the rest of his life. Not only is it inhumane, but it just doesn’t fit the crime. In fact, the Father would want to get his son the best help to conquer that addiction. Well, if a hueman loving Father can love their son and not resort to physical violence from sunrise to sundown everyday, then surely God wouldn’t throw that son into hellfire all because he struggles with an addiction. If we are made in God’s image, then surely God believes in the same things us huemans believe in.

I’ve chosen to believe in a God that’s a little more relatable. And yes, my God doesn’t have all the “omni’s” with the exception of being all-loving, cause that’s something that my God is. But my God makes perfect sense, and I don’t plan on converting to anything else at this time.

Thank you Pax for your contribution, and I’m glad you innerstand some of the problems I have with Catholicism. I just want the truth…I honestly, that’s all I want. I don’t care what religion it is (or if it really is a religion) or what belief system it is, I’ll gladly do all I can to find the truth. My findings have lead me to a truth that makes sense. I don’t know if I can get behind something that, at the very least, doesn’t make sense. But I would think that if a God does exist (which my God DOES exist) then wouldn’t He make sense? I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter…

Those statements may all be true, but I don’t think we know all that for sure. Faith as a gift may not be under human control, but maybe God gives it to those who are disposed to receive it.

One of the Gospels at Mass recently said that Jesus will not refuse anyone who comes to Him. So maybe all who are morally sincere will receive it.

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My understanding is that The Church teaches that not all receive “Efficacious grace”, even if they sincerely desire God.
This is why the Church says the distribution of efficacious grace is a "mystery of divine providence", not something guaranteed by human sincerity.

It seems the onus is always placed on the person when there are definitely situations where a person can be heartfelt and sincere but not receive the gift of faith which is given to certain people and not others. Faulting such people (which I believe is the default in Christianity in general) is rather like faulting a disabled person for their inability to do something that their disability prevents them from doing.

Hi Pax, I know it’s saying that I’m replying to you, but I’m not directing this towards you necessarily. I just thought of something and when I came on this particular topic your reply button was the first thing I saw. So please know I’m not directing this towards you necessarily, I just wanted to add on to what it was I was saying.

Another reason why it would make sense that someone who has zero belief in your God and your version of Jesus would end up in Hell is because it would make your religion look silly. If a non-believer had a chance to go to Heaven, then it would make Jesus’s sacrifice obsolete. Jesus was the one who made it so that everyone has a chance to go to Heaven right? So, it would make sense that in order for someone to go to Heaven that a person would have to agree and believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

It just makes me chuckle that your God created all of us, and because he is “all-knowing” he knew that some of us would believe in God and Jesus’s sacrifice and that some of us wouldn’t. Basically, your God is creating people, knowing that they’re going to Hell anyways. Not only is that unreasonable, but it’s also illogical. If God is truly all-knowing, but at the same time all-loving, then why is it that god creates people knowing their destination is ultimately hell? Does that sound like a very loving god to you? Which is why I use the example of how a loving Father would not punish their child every single day, from sunrise to sundown, all because they have a pornography addiction, but God would send that same child to hell? If God really is all-loving and truly desires people to go to Heaven, then the only thing that would make sense is, god isn’t all-knowing when he creates someone, but we know this to not be true, so basically Christians believe in a contradiction which causes a person like me to be confused. And according to Christians, confusion is something the enemy does. There’s soooo many contradictions in this religion, that it causes an intellectual like me to constantly be at odds with this religion, because it simply doesn’t make sense.

The Bible is the word of god which all Christians believe. One thing I hate is when people call it a book of fairy tales and mock God and call him a magic sky fairy and other horrible names.

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May I ask why you do not capitalize the name of God if you are a believer and follower of Him? Maybe you just mistyped, in which I apologize for bringing it up. I do see that you later capitalized “God” in the fallowing sentence.

Efficacious grace: please pardon the length of this post. I went looking and found a lot. I didn’t find “efficacious grace” in the Catholic Catechism, though it may be there. And I never looked at Reddit before; in fact, this time, at first I didn’t realize I was reading Reddit, but the comments I found seemed coherent to me, so I included them. Here we go …

Among the 255 Catholic dogmas:

119. God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments.

120. God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.

121. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.

123. There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens).

124. The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the grace by which he is justified.

133. Grace can be increased by good works.

Reddit

Calvinism teaches double predestination and irresistible grace, meaning God unilaterally chooses who goes to heaven and hell, and grace overrides the will. Thomism rejects that. God never predestines to damnation. Damnation is always the fruit of free rejection, not divine coercion.

Now about sufficient vs. efficacious grace: Yes, God gives sufficient grace to all. Efficacious grace is the grace that actually results in salvation, but here’s the key, it’s not a different kind of grace, it’s the same grace seen in light of the free cooperation that God foreknows and sustains. Thomists hold that grace doesn’t destroy freedom. Rather, God, in His omniscience, moves the will without violating it. It’s a mystery, but not a contradiction…

from the perspective of God’s eternal knowledge and plan, as it actually results in your free cooperation.

So does the person “make” it efficacious?

Not in the Pelagian sense, where grace is just an offer and it’s up to you to make it work. And not in the Calvinist sense, where God overrides your will and causes salvation without your cooperation.

In Thomism, God moves the will infallibly, but freely. He causes the “yes,” but in such a way that you genuinely will it. This respects your freedom because God acts as the primary cause, moving your will as a secondary cause in a way that fits your nature.

God knows who will accept His grace because He both foreknows and sustains their free cooperation. But He never causes damnation. Rejection is permitted, not predestined.

From an article about grace on CatholicTradition.org EFFICIACIOUS GRACE

“No power is gentler than the infallibly efficacious grace of God. It diffuses itself gently in the soul which begins to will; the more the soul wills and the greater its thirst for God, the more it will be enriched.”

I’m registered blind, & use a screen readers

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