I grew up as a nominal Protestant Christian and am trying to learn more about the Catholic faith. I have a lot of non-denominational friends who love Jesus and love to evangelize which I think is a wonderful thing. Personally, I’m not great at that myself, so props to them.
However, one thing I’ve noticed about their evangelizing is that they always put a heavy emphasis on having a relationship with Christ while also downplaying religion. Not on comparing which religion is the correct one (like say Islam or Hinduism) but religion itself as a concept. That it’s a bad thing.
While I would say having a relationship with Christ is an important aspect how can it be the ONLY thing? You read the Bible, try to understand it as best you can, attend church, pray, etc., …. These are all religious activities that these same people participate in …. How is that NOT religion?
What would you say is the best way to approach this topic? And have you encountered this much before? Am I wrong in my thinking …. I’m open to be corrected if so.
The God from the Faith of Abraham is the Two Nature God becoming again in all Creation One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
The Christ is logically more than Just Jesus. The two Sacraments of Death to Life are Baptism and Penance. We become in to the Catholic Church Baptized through the New Eve for Jesus Virgin Born in the New Adam becoming The Christ in all mankind.
The Christ is the spiritual Two Nature marriage from Holy Spirit Incorruption through immaculate flesh transformed becoming immortality in the New Eve becoming fro Jesus in the New Adam from Holy Spirit incorruption becoming through both natures both Fruits from the Two Trees of Life and of Knowledge becoming in One Body through the Christ for Sacrifice in Penance forgiven for all mankind becoming again glorified and transfigured for all Creation in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Religion is there for people who need it. Part of the reason why anything exists is because, it’s helping someone.
I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again, a big handful of people very rarely have to ever deal with Geometry. This is not to say Geometry is useless, it’s just something most people don’t have to deal with. But that doesn’t mean Geometry doesn’t have relevance, because people like my Father are land surveyors. So they’re constantly using Geometric formulas to find out the measurements of someone’s property.
So the same goes with Spiritual and Religious beliefs. One person might fully resonate with Catholicism, while another person resonates with Buddhism. Or some people, like me, resonate with both. But just because these religions serve me doesn’t mean it’ll serve everyone else, it’s just an option should you feel pulled or drawn to a certain belief system.
Everything that exists in the world today, exists for our evolution as a species. Everyone’s soul is different, so therefore, everyone’s going to believe in different things. It doesn’t mean someone’s beliefs are superior over anyone else’s beliefs, it just means that at this point in time, the beliefs that someone has serves them in our current time/space reality.
So, it sounds like to me that you don’t quite innerstand how someone can emphasize having a relationship with God but treat religion like a mud puddle. So, I would say, for your Spiritual walk, that you would definitely benefit from going to Church, praying, reading The Bible. And there’s nothing wrong with that, some people get more out of religion by participating in everything that religion does and preaches. But there are others who get more out of evangelizing to other people than they do religion. It doesn’t mean that you are superior or inferior to them, and they are not superior or inferior to you. It just means you have a different means of worship. Nothing wrong with what you’re doing, and what they’re doing, you just believe in slightly different things is all.
“Jesus hates religion,” a good friend of mine said. But my friend defines “religion” as rules and regulations. I looked in four dictionaries and couldn’t find that definition. The dictionaries all said that religion is a system of beliefs. But clearly some people have a negative meaning for “religion” that doesn’t match common usage, so I would call it jargon. If enough people adopt that meaning, it will make it into dictionaries.
That said, a system of beliefs is one thing; a way of living is another. The New Testament tells us to believe in Jesus, and says that some people will be condemned for not believing in Him. But it also says that even the demons believe. Also, when Jesus talked about judgment, He mostly spoke of mercy and forgiveness and how we treat others. Apparently He didn’t always mention belief.
And “relationship” is vague and covers a lot. I agree that we are supposed to have a family relationship with God our Father and Jesus our Brother. But I can’t have conversations with them the way I can with my human family. A few times, I have felt that God was saying something to me, but I didn’t hear a voice, and I talked to others about it, sometimes to a priest, to see whether I really was hearing from God. I can hear what God has to say in His written Word, and I sometimes hear Him through other people. But it’s not an ordinary human family relationship.
Rebirth is through the New Eve and salvation is from the New Adam becoming the One Body of Christ in all mankind.
Understanding the personal relationship with Jesus is understanding the family of God logically. We become brothers and sisters from Baptism through the new even to the Catholic Church. And for Jesus Virgin, born in the new Adam, becoming through the Christ in all mankind from sacrifice through penance all are forgiven, becoming again One Holy Spirit, Family One God in being.
Welcome! I attended a non-Denominational Church for a few years and I met many awesome Christians during that time in my journey (some who are now Catholic : )
Every great Saint had a relationship with Christ. And as Catholic Christians we do not just have a relationship with Jesus, but a Covenantal relationship with Him (which is the deepest form of relationship one can have with someone). It is like the difference between dating someone and being Married to the one you love.
Protestants often like to look at things as a either/or, whereas Catholic Christians tend to look at things from a both/and.
Jesus called out those who had religion, but not a relationship. This does not mean that religion is bad (unless you see the two opposed). Jesus was religious. He was Jewish, as were Mary and Joseph. Most of the original Twelve were also Jewish. Christianity is Christ’s fulfillment of the promises that God had made with those of the Old Testament (The Old Covenant).
The problem is not religion. The problem is not having a relationship.
I define religion as what someone believes and acts upon. Both Christians and Atheists have a religion, even if they claim not to. Some make their Politics their religion. Others make sports their religion. What is your religion? What is my religion?
You are correct, but I want to add perhaps a little more perspective to this. Going back to the difference between dating and Marriage. Most Christians would agree that Marriage is good (and Marriage is religious). Baptism is like Marriage. You can have a relationship with Jesus and not be Baptized. In fact, the non-Denominational Church that I attended did not believe in Baptism. Or if they did, it was simply symbolic.
But, to us, we believe that when two become one, we are forming a Covenant with our bride/groom. Jesus describes His relationship with the church as that of a relationship between a husband and a wife.
I love that you asked this question and that you are pondering this. I know in my own journey that as my relationship with Jesus began to grow, the more He led me to the Catholic Christian Faith of my youth. Conversion is not a one-time event. Conversion occurs when you have a relationship with God and allow His grace to move & work in your life.
Jesus has so much more to offer us than a surface-level relationship with Him. He offers us Himself (in the Eucharist) and we in return ourselves to Him. He offers us mercy, forgiveness, and grace (in Reconciliation). Yes, we know that Jesus loves us, but He shows us He loves us.
So, I would answer your question like this. Religion without relationship is empty. But, religion (namely the religion fulfilled in Christ Jesus, our Savior) with relationship is how God intended. Just as Marriage is more than symbolic, Baptism too is more than symbolic. We believe that in Baptism, we truly become members of Christ’s mystical body (of Which Christ is the head). We believe that in Baptism that Christ truly frees us from sin. We believe that in Baptism that Jesus pours out His salvific grace from the Cross. And we believe that we enter into a deeper Covenantal relationship with Him.
When the Soldier pierces Jesus’ side on the Cross, water and blood flowed from it (symbolizing Baptism and Eucharist). Are these gifts religious or relationship? Or are they both/and? Hope this helps : )
Thanks for your thoughtful response! I think I’m seeing a bigger picture here. I’ve noticed this also with the “either/or” and “both/and” distinction … very prominently so with the concept of “Faith” and “Works”. Many people I come in contact with act like these are completely separate concepts but to me, they are more like two sides of the same coin … hard to have one without the other (or at the very least, it’s unhealthy to have just the one).
I would say that rules and regulations aren’t necessarily a bad thing as long as they aren’t looked at in a purely legalistic way. God gives us rules out of love and concern, not just arbitrarily. It’s a “rule” that parents give to you not to take candy from strangers or to look both ways before crossing the street. To a child these seem like punishments … but for the parent it’s out of protection.
Jesus says if you love me you’ll keep my commandments. However many people put too much focus on the love … but not the obedience. And others still put all their focus on obedience … but have no love. You need both to flourish in my view.
I agree. The Jewish religion in Jesus’s time was loaded down with man-made rules to make sure people stayed within the limits of God’s commandments and all that the commandments might imply, but the rules got away from the most important things: loving God and loving neighbor. If you love God with your whole heart, you will keep His commandments fully.
Catholicism has plenty of manmade rules. For example, here in the Philadelphia archdiocese, it’s a sin—a serious sin!—if we don’t go to Mass next Monday, Dec. 8. Maybe in another diocese it isn’t a sin at all. And it’s a church rule. It could be changed overnight if the bishops so decided. The bishops have the authority to make it a requirement, but the rule is not an immutable moral one, such as the commandment to keep the Lord’s day holy. Speaking of that, for years I have avoided shopping on Sundays, by my own choice. Usually I have generally done so only when a family member needed a medication and didn’t tell me until the day it ran out and the day happened to be a Sunday. I had a conversation with my mother about this. I said that we are grown-ups, we are serious about our faith, and we don’t need a rule to tell us what shopping is OK (maybe there isn’t a rule any more; I didn’t see it in the Catholic Catechism). Likewise the rules on fasting (only two days a year are required): I followed these as long as I could, till about age 57, but do we really need rules specifying how much we are allowed to eat? I would prefer a rule saying to fast as you are able.
I find this idea very strange. I’ve always thought of sin being tied to immutable offenses against God or Man. The idea of a Bishop (somewhat arbitrarily) declaring something a sin for one particular group and not another … seems like a double standard unlike what I envision God’s character to be.
The Bible was written by men for mankind. I’m sorry but, the way I live my faith, is I don’t need to follow mankinds rules or Scriptures. I can worship God in my own home, there’s nothing in Scripture saying that I need to attend Mass to be saved, but even moreso than that, The Bible was written by men. Again, I do what God wants me to do. God didn’t write The Bible, so why should I believe in something that is:
1.) Written by men.
2.) The Bible has 40 authors and 66 books in it, and you mean to tell me that I can put my faith and trust in people I’ve never met, or really know a whole lot about other than what is written? That’s like saying “All government officials can be trusted.” You mean that I have to trust that 40 different authors from a very long time ago know what is best for me and my family? Things are different now. Back then, customs were different, mindsets were different, things were just different. How am I supposed to apply what happened back then to now? Look, I’m not against having morals. Morals are a good thing, and it’s good to be as moral as you can, but, things have changed so much. Love is the one thing that should never change, but times do change. And don’t get me wrong, some things in The Bible are good like man shouldn’t lie with another man and the 10 Commandments are pretty good and solid rules to live by, but I dunno if I can put my trust in 40 other people. Trust is something that is earned, not freely given.
3.) Sin was an invention to keep mankind obedient. I don’t believe in sin, simply because I wouldn’t consider lying sinful. Now, does that mean that lying is good? Well most of the time it’s not, but I wouldn’t call lying a sin though. A sin to me would be murdering someone. But I just think, in general, sin is a manmade concept. Fear can be a powerful motivator but there’s the flipside to that, where fear can be a terrible means of controlling someone. That’s why I don’t believe in this “God-fearing” characteristic that people have. You shouldn’t fear anything, cause fear can be a gateway to all sorts of bad things. Live life fearlessly, but use common sense too. Don’t think that going up to a Lion, and trying to pet it will be a piece of cake. That’s when you use some common sense. But live your life fearlessly, no sense in living in fear every waking moment.
Again, I’m not Catholic anymore, but we need to talk about these things more. If anything, we should be pouring more love into what we do and not try to divide people, which is what most people are good at.
I agree. In this case, it’s a holy day of obligation (and that itself could be changed), but in the United States if a holy day of obligation (except Christmas, as far as I know) falls on a Monday or Saturday it’s usually made not a day on which we are obliged to go to Mass. These are manmade requirements that could change.
I appreciate your bluntly honest take, my friend. Not everyone is so bold but instead hide behind walls so as to not offend. I respect that.
That being said. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth. Yes, the Bible was written by a multitude of different authors across different languages, cultures, and even separated by a vast span of several centuries. And yet despite all that, it still tells a cohesive grand story about redemption and prophecy that starts with Adam and Eve and culminates in Jesus Christ, the most influential man that has ever existed (we mark our calendars by this man’s birth for example). And yet he had no empire, no writings, no wealth, no progeny, wasn’t even born into a big city, but in the outskirts of small town (didn’t even have the decency to be born in a bed, but a feeding trough).
THAT is the reason why these mere human writings are worth our time. They were inspired. Does that mean that there aren’t problematic passages or hard things to understand? Absolutely not. But there is good reason to have faith that these texts are special because they speak of a man that couldn’t have been “made up” by our own human imaginations.
Well, and I think that if The Bible really has that much of an impact on you, than I think that’s absolutely wonderful. I’m glad that this religion actually does help people.
I’m not going to completely be in-denial. Facts are facts, you know? This religion has demonstrated that it can really truly help people. It’s helped my Mother, and it’s even helping my brother right now. I think that Catholicism works for you and that it’s evident that it does hold a special place in your heart.
And, before I say what I’m about to say, I think it’s important to acknowledge what I agree with you on. I agree that Jesus was a real person, and wasn’t some myth or legend. I agree that Jesus was able to perform a variety of miracles (which, there’s a Science to that, that our current Scientists haven’t figured out yet). But, there are certain things that I’ve researched in History that doesn’t make any sense to me. In fact, when I researched everything…I think there’s something going on.
You see, throughout my entire life, I always felt something is seriously wrong about our reality, but I couldn’t put a finger on it. I’m gonna say something that is going to sound really weird, but, let’s just say, I think History got it wrong. I think the Gnostics and the Marcionites had it right. I think that the God of the Old Testament is Yaldabaoth (a.k.a. the Demiurge), and that Sophia the Aeon created this being that wants to be the only God that everyone worships. And I believe the Demiurge created Archons, which is like the dark side of an Aeon (You can think of Aeons like angels in a sense). And I believe that the God of the Old Testament wants to be the only God that people worshipped. I think the reason why the God of The Bible is a “jealous God” is because, there’s a being higher than him that is the true God. He is called “The One.”
Now the Catholic Church will say “Well, these Gnostic gospels are really heretical or non-cannonical and have no reason to be a part of the true narrative.” But, I disagree….in fact, the more I read all of these books (not just the ones in the current Bible that’s in circulation, but the ones that were taken out) the more that the “Catholic Mysteries” start to make sense. You see, the more I read and the more I research, the more that I’m convinced that the original Bible (which if put together correctly will consist of 777 books total), I’m convinced that the original Bible was supposed to make sense. I think History got it wrong, and that the Gnostics and the Mariconites (and if you know anything about Marcion, for a while his teachings became widely popular at one point), but I think those people were wrongly killed for their beliefs. I believe these to be the true martyrs of our time. Something we have to remember is, during the time that Jesus started his ministry, he was kind of a loving rebel if you want to think of it that way. He went against the current religion at the time, and would speak nothing but love everytime something came out of his mouth. He was a true pioneer, but he went against the grain. Well…Marcion and the Gnostics went against the grain too. It’s just awfully funny to me how these same people (and really the Gnostics were smaller in number compared to the Mariconites), were killed for their beliefs. I personally think that History was altered….and there’s definitely a lot of ulterior motives going on. I think the Church Hierarchy knows something we don’t. I find it weird that a lot of these Priests are fondling little boys. I find it weird that there’s a banner of Satan that is found underneath St. Peters Basilica in The Vatican, along with all sorts of different Gods of old like Oceanus. And here’s the thing, I don’t believe in coincidences. I believe that everything is by design, and everything is as it should be at all times. So, because I believe in this strongly, there’s an explanation for everything that is in existence. If everything is by design, then everything serves a purpose. Sometimes the purpose can be dark, but none-the-less everything has a purpose. I think History was altered because there are certain people in power (or 7 families who runs the show on this planet), that doesn’t want us to know the truth about our origins. I mean, just the story of Adam and Eve I have a problem with. I have learned that the truth is supposed to make sense. And I’ve also learned, because the truth is supposed to make sense, it is very ugly and very filthy and nasty. There’s nothing flattering about the truth. This world is a prison, and we are the prisoners. This world is supposed to feel off, cause it is off. I mean, no one will ever tell you that the Julian Calendar is supposed to be our real Calendar because it syncs to the rhythm of the Universe. No one will ever tell you, that that one phenomenon (which happened a few years ago) where you were able to take a broom and stand it up and let go, and the broom would just stand there instead of fall over when you let go, no one will tell you that that was when the poles shifted. The poles weren’t supposed to shift….that’s abnormal for a planet to have the poles shift. It’s also abnormal for a planet to spin counter-clockwise, cause most planets spin clockwise, but no one will tell you that at one point Earth was spinning counter-clockwise. And most people will never know that….and that’s because, behind the scenes, Earth was being messed with……and that’s a fact Jack. You’ll never hear this stuff on mainstream news, but the moment when the broom stood up, something inside of me was saying “This is not normal….brooms are not supposed to stand up by themself.”
To further illustrate my point, I’m gonna post a song. You wanna know what I believe in? Well…I believe that there are certain songs (not every song) but certain songs that are put out on the airwaves that give you a clue as to what is going on behind the scenes. You see, the 7 psychopathic families who have run our Earth for a while, don’t want you to know certain things, but these 7 families also believe in Karma too. So what they do is they cleverly mask their plans through different modes of entertainment, and this serves a 2-sided purpose: It’s their way of avoiding Karma, and they make you think it’s just for entertainment. And sure….for some songs and movies, it is purely for just entertainment, but there are some movies that are not for entertaining (like for example, you do realize, in the U.S. we have a Millenium Falcon right? Star Wars wasn’t just a movie, it revealed all the technology we have on our hands. But…because it’s a movie, you just think it’s a movie and that it’s not real, but it’s real. I’ve seen the schematics for this Millenium Falcon. It’s pretty cool.).
This is what I believe, and it’s not just a theme song for a t.v. series, it’s coded. See if you can “decode” the song for yourself:
