This is the passage that is an infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church condemning abortion…

Apologetics
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“Given such unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church, Paul VI was able to declare that this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable. 72 Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. 73

No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church.”

Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), 62, 1995

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What do you know about Numbers 5:21-28? Some feminist on the socials pointed out this verse and said, “see abortion is in the Bible.”

Thoughts?

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Here is an article that seems to cover the verses more in depth than I ever could. It is Numbers 5 and Abortion: Does the Old Testament Law Condone Abortion? | Answers in Genesis

Thanks

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Thanks! I found a couple good videos from both Trent Horn and your arch-nemeses Jimmy Akin on the topic as well. Both said slightly different things from one another, but when you put both of their answers together it makes sense to me.

It was believed that the woman, if she did indeed cheat on her husband, would be rendered unfertile as a curse, but if she had not, and was falsely accused, then she would be blessed by fertility.

The Bible translations that use the term “miscarriage” are poorly translated. Plus it is unclear if a child was even conceived, let alone if there was in fact infidelity committed.

And infertility makes more sense, because it is a curse, not an immediate punishment. And even if it were an abortion as a punishment (which doesn’t make sense), it would not glorify nor put a stamp-of-approval for feminists, many of whom don’t even believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, to justify consuming a pill that will end the life of an innocent, unborn human being and possibly harm the mother (both physically and psychologically).

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Thank YOU!
Well done good and faithful servant!

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Murder is murder. There is no justification. The best abortion is to remain chaste. Sex is not meant as a form of social entertainment. Those who have sex for entertainment are on the level of cats and dogs, wherein the only intention is gratification of the senses. Animal life. This is why human beings have a marriage ceremony, for man and woman to combine with a vow to live together as God’s servants in one house. Actually, the house is the temple of God…because God is the proprietor of every house. And we, who live in the house, are God’s servants. The idea or demeanor of the heart that everything is for "my pleasure…this is the the demonic mentality. We are here for learning how to live for God’s pleasure. But today, even in the so-called Christian churches, people think of God as the big Amazon.com, who is there as an order supplier for granting our wishes. It is a pious nature that recognizes God as the source of all that exists…but it is not the teachings of Jesus that we turn to God for supplying our health, wealth, etc. No. Jesus teaches in two ways. One is by precept. The other way is by his personal example. Therefore Jesus, who has the ability to avoid crucifixion, even if the whole world wanted this, said, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.” This means, “Whatever is pleasing to You, my Lord, this is my only desire.” This is called pure devotion. Asking God for other things is also devotion. But not pure. It is worship for personal gain. This is called motivated devotion. This doing business with God: “I will worship You, if You fulfill all my desires.” Killing children is murder, and the law of the land should rule in this way. Before so-called modern science became the religion of the people, the question of abortion or not abortion was not so much present. But today, people consider themselves to be “free”, liberated from religious “superstition”. Actually, in this way they are free, to go to hell. But the problem is that they have no role models to follow. People are followers by nature. And the so-called leaders of nations simply tell the people what they think the people want to hear…so that they can go on exploiting them.

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Hello Chris! I feel that you should be more patient with StephenAndrew. He is sincere. I agree that his mode of expression is not easy to understand. It is different from what we are accustomed to. But he glorifies Jesus. He glorifies the church. He speaks on the highest level in different ways. He is a member of your church. He is loved by Jesus. Let us just try to be grateful that he is one of our family, rather than an atheist or a demon. We do not know of Stephen’s relationship with Jesus. He could be miles ahead of us. Let us be grateful and respectful. I am not perfect. But your words are harsh…so I felt to say something. I pay my respects to you, Chris93.

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Peter 1,

Thank you for 2 very good letters to me. Regarding Stephen, I took your admonition very seriously. I looked up my 5 replies to him below:

Hi Stephen, I wanted to reply to and question you ONMIlogic that Mary is one of the Trinity. Right off the bat your theory is a heresy against the Catholic Church which has defined the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am at a loss why you chose Mary to be divine when the Bible never says …

I haven’t replied to you because your idea of the Trinity is a heresy against the Catholic Church. I had hoped you would grow out of it but you have not. I sincerely hope that you will repent of your heresy.

I beg you to stop preaching this heresy.

Your theology is incorrect and is a heresy. Please stop for the sake of God.

You interfere with the posts of others with nonsense replies. Please stay away from anything that I post. You are a disrupter and a bully.

My initial objection was that his theory is a heresy against the Catholic Church by saying that Mary is part of the Blessed Trinity. When he did not retract his heresy, I started to resist his intrusive replies to my every post with his heresy as if he was forcing his heresy on me despite my request to stop bullying.

Nonetheless, I respect your admonition to me very much, and I assure you I have taken it to heart. It won’t happen again, that is for the moderator to decide. Thank you.

But today, people consider themselves to be “free”, liberated from religious “superstition”. Actually, in this way they are free, to go to hell. But the problem is that they have no role models to follow. People are followers by nature. And the so-called leaders of nations simply tell the people what they think the people want to hear…so that they can go on exploiting them.

I thought these sentences were very true and on target. “Free from religion” is commonplace these days and extremely dangerous as you noted. No role models and followers by nature are descriptive of people I call “shallow” meaning no depth of religion, ethics, fairness, the common good, equity, goodness, sympathy and so forth. Just between me and you I believe that the very active, very vocal pro-aborts and their monetary contributors are psychopathic.

Thanks for the conversation. Maybe we can trade opinions again.

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HI Chris 93! Were you born in '93?

RE: “Free from religion” is commonplace these days and extremely dangerous as you noted. No role models and followers by nature are descriptive of people I call “shallow” meaning no depth of religion, ethics, fairness, the common good, equity, goodness, sympathy and so forth. Just between me and you I believe that the very active, very vocal pro-aborts and their monetary contributors are psychopathic.

RE: .“Free from religion” is commonplace these days and extremely dangerous". I feel that the problem lies in the fact that so many people have been disappointed by the church, in various ways. Therefore there is lot of talk about hypocrisy. I have seen documentaries in which there are men’s groups in which the men who gather together, share their experiences of being sexually molested by priests in the church. Some of them turned to their parents for protection, but they were sent back into the hands of these same priests. Because. they were just little boys when these things happened, and they were told that these men represented God…it really left a profound emotional scar, and questions about religion with these people. Then there is the educational system which advises the public that science has all the answers and that religion is for primitive people. Then we have the media filled with so much nonsense, vidoes, etc. All these factors pollute the mind of the public, and it is all sanctioned by the governments of the world.

RE: … followers by nature are descriptive of people I call “shallow” meaning no depth of religion, ethics, fairness, the common good, equity, goodness, sympathy and so forth. But it is a sociological fact that most people are followers. This is why good leadership is required. If the leaders of nations really love and take care of their citizens, the people feel it, and want to be “part of the family”, and participate socially, in a healthy way. But when the leaders utilize their positions simply to maintain the status quo between the rich and the poor, and maintain low income for the masses…the result is that the man in the street feels that “It’s every man for himself. Nobody cares about me. These men in politics are taking care of themselves. They make promises that they don’t keep. They are “ripping us off”. So I am going to get a piece of the action.” And therefore the nation is filled with scams, on the web, on the phones. It is all because the people at the top are dishonest. Even the president of the U.S. has some 35 felony counts against him.

As far as ethics goes, Jesus said, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” This is not a sentiment. It is also a warning. No one gets away with anything. This is God’s law…what scripture calls “sewing and reaping.” But people are simply not educated to understand these things. If a man knew that we cannot get away with anything…he would not try to be dishonest.

I am not in a position to admonish you or anyone else, Chris. I was just feeling some sympathy for Stephen. Yes, he is eccentric, and probably experiences rejection in different ways in different sectors. But he wants to be part of our little group. And yes, Mother Mary, I can only imagine that she is specially chosen by God to have Jesus within her womb. She must be a very special spiritual being. In a sense, the concept of God is somewhat broad in Catholicism, to include the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Surely Mary is part of the family. In a broader sense God includes God and His family of spiritual associates in the spiritual realm, some of whom come to our planet to give us teachings. I know that we must accept the dogma as it is given to us by higher authority in the church, but the fact that Stephen holds Mother Mary in great esteem is not a bad thing. I know that Catholics pray to Mother Mary on their rosary beads. In any case, I am finding that the kinder I am to others, the more my heart feels better. I am slow in following my own advice…but I am trying to move forward.

Best wishes, Peter

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Including Mary in the Trinity is obviously heresy without a doubt and is a teaching contrary to the Catholic Church. An affinity to Mary does not excuse heresy. I rightly tried to correct him which is an act of love on my part in order to correct him. He was intrusive and a bully no doubt.
Hebrews 12:2 says, "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith

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I know this is off topic but I need help. If there is any clergy in the site i’d like to hear their opinion on this.
scenario:

Someone approaches communion in sin with enough knowledge and then on top of that mistreats the host with contempt, disregard and malice (dolus) while consuming it. The subject is aware enough that such actions can incurr in penalties in church law.

Could this person incurr in excommunication (automatic)?

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Abortion - Catechism of the Catholic Church

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2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. 72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. 73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. 74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. 75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes. 76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae ,” 77 “by the very commission of the offense,” 78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. 79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation :

“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.” 80

“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.” 81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

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catechist4

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Hi and thank you for posting these wonderful verses about abortion. We need more like this.Below I have reproduced paragraph #62 of the gospel of Life by Pope John 2 which is an infallible condemnation of abortion with the same authority as all the Marian dogmas and the founding of the Catholic Church by Christ. Here goes…

Given such unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church, Paul VI was able to declare that this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable. 72 Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. 73

No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church.

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“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” To me this means that the spirit soul is the real person, and we only occupy the material body for a short time, while we are on earth. It is our vehicle, and “I am not this body. I am an eternal soul.” God knew us before the body was formed. and we were consecrated before the temporary body was formed. the spirit soul is eternal. the material body is our vehicle while the soul is in the material dimension. The material body requires the presence of the spirit, without which it returns to the earth (ashes to ashes, dust to dust). The spirit soul is eternal and lives very well without being encased in a material form, which is a source of unlimited problems. And yes, murder is murder, whether of an adult or a newly conceived baby in the womb.

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Have you ever been raped? What would you do if you were raped by someone who was in your immediate family and you were only 11 years old? The consequences are very different for a child or that of a mother who was having a miscarriage so early in her pregnancy that she had not missed her monthly. I was hemorrhaging to death and was forced to undergo many medical tests and procedures to save a 6 week embryo by a Catholic nun because I was brought by ambulance to a Catholic hospital. I suffered for 18 hours and was watching the life out of my body. Finally a proper physician came and took me for emergency surgery to remove the dead embryo and gave me a D&C. I was hospitalized for weeks. The doctor explained that the embryo was very damaged and would never grow back to normal. And this was my body’s way of getting rid of the toxins that were going to leave me septic and dead. Do not let faith take the place of science and medicine. Honestly, stay away from hospitals when you’re sick if you’re against science. Honestly, I saw a man online who said he was looking for a future wife but he didn’t date women who were vaccinated for any diseases. Hahaha! I responded to the imbecile with zero education and informed him that cows and livestock are vaccinated. The parasites that live in the dew of the grass are just filled with the things. Farmers prayed for vaccines in the early 1900’s.

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I know the reason why abortion exists, but people aren’t ready to hear it. I personally am against it, but, I know why it exists.

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That’s all nice and sounds great! But it’s not real life. It’s not like the church or a million Prolifers are going to clothe, nurture or even feed these unwanted pregnancies that fully develop into full term babies! I spend $300 a month feeding stray animals, and giving money to charities that I make sure the administration doesn’t give themselves millions in bonuses and other benefits. Although this pro choice subject is never going to satisfy everyone, I’m starting to realize that maybe religion isn’t the answer for me. It’s not black and white. There’s so much gray. The main problem with abstinence in our youth is that it doesn’t work. They are freshly introduced to the hormones and testosterone levels that are very high and they have youth! Young, capable and very estrogen and testosterone hormones and tight skin and they never live for consequence. Only the moment. I actually had the calling to be a nun when I was younger. But boys wouldn’t leave me alone ever!

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Hi Elsa! No, I have never been raped……but maybe there’s still time for that. I’ll be 82 in March.

I understand what you are saying about science etc. Yes, we can use it. But at the same time, I have some convictions that are eccentric. One idea is that what is coming to us, both good and bad in this life on earth is according to our destiny. One man works very, very hard, and remains in poverty his whole life. Another man does no wholesome work and wins 10 million dollars in the lottery. I do believe that what comes to us in this life is according to the administration of the nature, under God’s supervision. Sewing and reaping. Of course, Catholics do not subscribe to the concept of reincarnation, and the idea that those who have done good in previous lifetimes are blessed in the present, and those who have done bad are born paraplegic, etc. I guess they believe that God plays favorites with some of us, for no good reason. The scientists say that everything is a matter of chance. And people talk about good luck and bad luck. But my understanding is that “chance” and “luck” are atheistic concepts.
The Vedic scriptures teach us that when God creates the material world, He puts certain laws in place. Rules as to how we should live if we wish to prosper and enjoy in the material world. Of course no matter how nice our material life is, no one can keep it. Old age, disease, and death are guaranteed. However, the scripture states, as long as the people of the earth operate slaughter houses, engage in illicit sexual connection, take different forms of intoxication, and engage in gambling, the earth will be inundated with plagues (like covid), floods, draughts, forest fires, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. The scientists are doing research to counteract these phenomena………because they think that they can correct the things that God has not planned very well. But they are only giving us a post-dated that can never be cashed. I understand these ideas are very eccentric relative to contemporary views on reality…….but these are my convictions. Jesus said we should deal with others in the ways that we would like to be treated. I take this as a warning. “What goes around, comes around.” Hope you are doing well today. Peter

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Yes, it exists because those who took the lives of infants in their past lives by having abortions, they get aborted in this life. This is called “sewing and reaping”.

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In the spiritual world, what scripture refers to as “heaven”, no one has any desire other than to serve the Lord, in so many nice ways, and sing His glories. Heaven is a 24/7 celebration. No abortions, no cancer, no earthquakes, no rape, no old age, no disease, no death……. In the Bible, Jesus says that we should not seek our pleasures in this world, “Great is you reward in heaven.”

The point is that we are all prodigal sons and daughters. The material world is not our real home. We have been evicted from the “Garden”. Garden of Eden. (I didn’t write the Bible….I am only repeating.). But no scientist or archeologist will locate the Garden as being on this planet. Because it’s not. The Garden of Eden is the spiritual world. And for those of us who are rebellious, who succumb to the temptation of using our own discretion, we are put out. There is no eviction notice. We simply take birth in the world of disease and death.
Then God sends His various representatives. The material world is a rehab center, a penitentiary. God’s representatives tell us how to live in order to get out of our predicament. But it all goes against the grain, because we are born here, filled with a spirit of independence (what the scripture refers to as “original sin”).

Your activities of feeding animals is good. You will receive pious credit. Good will come back to you. But do you contribute to the welfare of some animals…… and eat others? Do you think that only some suffer when they have their throats cut?
So…..doing good works, like feeding animals, etc. this is not the teachings of Jesus. He says that by being a good person, no one goes back to the spiritual world. Jesus says that we have to cultivate spontaneous feelings of love of God (with all our heart, with all our strength). Again, these are not my ideas. These are the words of Jesus.
We are down here, and we are all suffering. When a prison is constructed, it is not for the pleasure of the inmates. It is for our redemption. Suffering defeats pride…brings about humility. This is the first step in our rehabilitation.

Scripture says that God “sits on a throne”, and that “He has the whole world in His hands.” Therefore people pray to God when they need money, when they want something for themselves, new car, house, job, better relationship, etc. But when things don’t work out the way they like, they say, “bad luck”. This is living in contradiction. Either “luck” or “chance” is in charge…..or God is in charge.

But praying to God for enhancing our life in the prison of the material world……this is not love of God……..this is doing business with God. “If I get what I ask for, I will worship God.”

The hard core prisoner is not thinking how to qualify to get out. He is thinking how he can enjoy prison life. Therefore people pray to God, “I know that You have put me here, where there is disease, old age, and death…..where I have to work very hard to make ends meet……but please make my stay in Your prison house nice…..please give me a few perks.”
But Jesus says that what God really wants, is not our “good works” (“one cannot enter the Kingdom by good works alone”.), but He wants our love, 24/7.

Therefore Jesus is “pro choice”. He says the choice is ours. “Love God with all your heart, and go back home to the spiritual world…..or try to enjoy prison life.” If we choose to try to enjoy prison life, we can taste the fruits of the tree of good and evil. We can have a nice car….and get raped by a police man who stops us driving home. Then we can say, “I really wanted to be a nun…..but those boys….they just wanted to jump me……it’s really not my fault.

The same applies to all of us. We are all here, outside of “The Garden” for the same reason. We can go on blaming it on Adam and Eave. But we have to begin to take responsibility. That is the proper use of being “pro-choice.” That’s what religion is all about, moment to moment. Are we trying to please Hiim, or trying to please ourselves. Most people want to have their cake and eat it. “So much for God…..so much for me.” But Jesus says, “with all our strength with all our heart.”

Am I there? No. I’m still a fool, trying to enjoy this material world. But this kind of “talk”, ,Catholic Talk, Protestant Talk, Muslim Talk, Jewish Talk…….it’s all about keeping our sense of direction alive. So I like to talk about these things, so that maybe, some day, I’ll begin to practice what I preach.