An important decision

Catholic Living
127

I appreciate your candidness. It is not easy to share our faults and poor choices in our life.

I have to push-back a little (and maybe we agree), but pleasure is a part of the Marital act and is not a bad thing. But, as I think you were saying, if we are participating in the Marital act and not open to the possibility of life, then I agree that it is sinful.

But, if one does not only have to participate in the Marital act only to create life (for this would be separating the unitive from the procreative).

Getting broken is the reverse of this (separating the procreative from the unitive) is also disordered and sinful.

Have you ever considered getting a reversal? A friend of mine’s brother got a vasectomy prior to getting Married and never told his Wife who wanted to have children. He did ultimately go have the surgery to get it reversed and they had a beautiful little girl. I do not know if he ever told her, which is an entire different topic we can have.

What does your Wife say about your decision not to be intimate (honoring God’s design and her soul really)? Is she understanding or does it cause resentment in your Marriage?

No judgement on my part, but I think if I were in your situation, I would get the reversal and restore the unitive and the procreative aspects of this gift that I had (out of ignorance) broken apart. Thank you again for sharing. I think it could help someone else who comes across this thread. And thank you @DavidHarper for bringing up the topic.

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128

If you are referring to me, my wife and I divorced decades ago. But I now know that I’m still married to her in God’s eyes, so I cannot proceed in any other relationship while my (ex) wife is still living.

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Oh sorry, Yes I was replying to you. Were you divorced before or after you had the procedure done (if you don’t mind me asking)?

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After. But to us at the time it was just something normal to do.

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A serious matter, yes, but Catholic definition of a mortal sin is that it has to be a serious matter that involves knowledge of how serious it is and full intention to do it anyway. Somebody who commits a mortal sin knows that it’s seriously wrong and does it anyway. It sounds like you didn’t know that it was seriously wrong.

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A long time ago readers digest ran an article that found that if a woman could only get pregnant on purpose ( if it couldn’t happen be accident) half of us wouldn’t be here.

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I just read through all this and I’m like

:face_without_mouth::open_mouth:

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The entire thread?? Or just @Soul’s post?

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The thread. It was wild

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An important question:
343 New York city firemen died in the World Trade Centers on 9/11. They died in the attempt to save the lives of others. All of them were not Catholic. Some were not even Christian. Maybe some were Jews. Maybe some were agnostic or even atheist. But they all had one thing in common: they sacrificed their own lives trying to save the lives of others. So my question is; did those firemen who died and were not Catholic or Christian go to heaven?

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Jesus said not to judge. That goes both ways. “Guilty” is not the only possible judgment, or why would we need judges? Deciding whether someone is in heaven is a judgment. The church, after careful examination of a person’s life, sometimes declares the person to be a saint. There are even a few deceased people who, I am confident, are in heaven. But deciding which strangers are in heaven? Nope.

139

Jesus says there is no great love than to lay down one’s life for another (John 15:13).

That is not up to us to decide. If one rejected or, worse, hated God, to be with Him for eternity might be a hell for that soul.

It is not enough to be a good person or even a great person. We need The Savior. The Catholic Church teaches that individuals who never knew Christ (through no fault of their own) can be saved. Most Americans have heard of Jesus and many have even heard the Gospel message, and yet, reject Christ.

God can save whomever He wishes to, however He wants to. It is not up to us to declare who is going to Hell and who is going to Heaven.

What we do know is that Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life.” And the second part of this is that “no one can come to the Father except through [Him]” (John 14:6)

John 15 speaks of Jesus as the “true vine” and we are the “branches.” Verse 5 says, "Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Verse 6 says, “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither” and “will be burned.”

This is referring to those who are a part of the vine and not about those who were not a part of the vine. This is why “Once saves, always saves” Protestantism is not Biblical.

But John 15 also speaks to those who are not part of the vine as well, in that “without [the vine] you can do nothing.” So you can be a very good person, but anything you do, is meaningless if you don’t do it “in Him, through Him, and with Him” (John 14:20).

Jesus summed up the 10 Commandments into two. 1. Love God with all your hear, mind, and soul (Matthew 22:37). 2. Love others as yourselves (Matthew 22:39). Saving the lives of others falls under the second command: “This I command you: love one another” (John 15:17).

Can one be saved if they Love God, but not others? Can one be saved if they love others, but not God? And can one be saved if he does not cooperate with the grace which flows from the ultimate Savior (“the true Vine”) and does not bear fruit nor is pruned by God our Father (“the Vine Grower”)? And can our efforts bear fruit if they do not glorify God (verse 8)?

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My catholic prayer brother told me, that a couple has to be open to procreation “unless there is a good reason”. I will probably become pressed on this, so will have to contact him on this. He is now in his noviciate for monkhood in another country, so could take up to some days.

However, reading this thread, I believe that the threadstarter “has a good reason” not to be open to procreation. So I should be really hardpressed to think he is in mortal sin, based on the description given.

I will get back on this point.

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Thank you for your response. Apparently there are intelligent people on this site.

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You’re doing that Trump thing. When individuals tell him what he wants to hear, he compliments them. When you don’t, he insults you : )

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You are confused. When someone says something that is true I compliment them. When someone says something that is nonsense I confront them.

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I will see my prayer brother today, and hopefully will be able tp provide something for the longing soul (s)
blessings :slight_smile:

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my prayer brother pointed to Humanae Vitae. So now it is time for a read !

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146

Hm, after the read, I can only say that I do not think that anyone in this thread is completely wrong. I think the encyclical letter in some sense fails to address the issue voiced in this thread. It discusses procreation being “undesirable”, but it does not address procreation being “life-threatening”. So we have a situation, where the reason for avoiding procreation is grave.

My brother voiced the idea, that no-one can be forced into a martyrdom. It has to be free-willed. In the present situation, having a child seems to be an act of martyrdom by the wife of threadstarter.

Then there are those voices that say that all christians are called to be martyrs. Hm yes, maybe that is where secualarism has kicked in. We live a christianity without martyrdom (?)

But then, should we force DavidHarpers wife to be the first to go back on the martyrs road?

Ok, enough thoughts from me now. I will take the discussion with my brother again tomorrow.

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I get what your Brother is saying here. Murray N. Rothbard (a secular atheist Jew) once said, “No action can be virtuous unless it is freely chosen.”

And I can think of many who did not choose martyrdom, but accepted it.

I like that you are wrestling with this, because it shows that you can see valid arguments on all sides of this issue, which is a sign of maturity.

My position is not asking her to. It is simply asking the couple to refrain from relations during times when her natural signs (designed by God) read that they are likely to conceive. Forcing her would be to mandate that she and David interact (Maritally speaking) during times where her natural signs point to fertility. Or (God forbid) somone rąping someone in David’s wife’s situation during fertile times, which I would not wish upon anyone.

Same : )