The thread. It was wild
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An important question:
343 New York city firemen died in the World Trade Centers on 9/11. They died in the attempt to save the lives of others. All of them were not Catholic. Some were not even Christian. Maybe some were Jews. Maybe some were agnostic or even atheist. But they all had one thing in common: they sacrificed their own lives trying to save the lives of others. So my question is; did those firemen who died and were not Catholic or Christian go to heaven?
Jesus said not to judge. That goes both ways. “Guilty” is not the only possible judgment, or why would we need judges? Deciding whether someone is in heaven is a judgment. The church, after careful examination of a person’s life, sometimes declares the person to be a saint. There are even a few deceased people who, I am confident, are in heaven. But deciding which strangers are in heaven? Nope.
Jesus says there is no great love than to lay down one’s life for another (John 15:13).
That is not up to us to decide. If one rejected or, worse, hated God, to be with Him for eternity might be a hell for that soul.
It is not enough to be a good person or even a great person. We need The Savior. The Catholic Church teaches that individuals who never knew Christ (through no fault of their own) can be saved. Most Americans have heard of Jesus and many have even heard the Gospel message, and yet, reject Christ.
God can save whomever He wishes to, however He wants to. It is not up to us to declare who is going to Hell and who is going to Heaven.
What we do know is that Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life.” And the second part of this is that “no one can come to the Father except through [Him]” (John 14:6)
John 15 speaks of Jesus as the “true vine” and we are the “branches.” Verse 5 says, "Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Verse 6 says, “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither” and “will be burned.”
This is referring to those who are a part of the vine and not about those who were not a part of the vine. This is why “Once saves, always saves” Protestantism is not Biblical.
But John 15 also speaks to those who are not part of the vine as well, in that “without [the vine] you can do nothing.” So you can be a very good person, but anything you do, is meaningless if you don’t do it “in Him, through Him, and with Him” (John 14:20).
Jesus summed up the 10 Commandments into two. 1. Love God with all your hear, mind, and soul (Matthew 22:37). 2. Love others as yourselves (Matthew 22:39). Saving the lives of others falls under the second command: “This I command you: love one another” (John 15:17).
Can one be saved if they Love God, but not others? Can one be saved if they love others, but not God? And can one be saved if he does not cooperate with the grace which flows from the ultimate Savior (“the true Vine”) and does not bear fruit nor is pruned by God our Father (“the Vine Grower”)? And can our efforts bear fruit if they do not glorify God (verse 8)?
My catholic prayer brother told me, that a couple has to be open to procreation “unless there is a good reason”. I will probably become pressed on this, so will have to contact him on this. He is now in his noviciate for monkhood in another country, so could take up to some days.
However, reading this thread, I believe that the threadstarter “has a good reason” not to be open to procreation. So I should be really hardpressed to think he is in mortal sin, based on the description given.
I will get back on this point.
Thank you for your response. Apparently there are intelligent people on this site.
You’re doing that Trump thing. When individuals tell him what he wants to hear, he compliments them. When you don’t, he insults you : )
You are confused. When someone says something that is true I compliment them. When someone says something that is nonsense I confront them.
I will see my prayer brother today, and hopefully will be able tp provide something for the longing soul (s)
blessings 
my prayer brother pointed to Humanae Vitae. So now it is time for a read !
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Hm, after the read, I can only say that I do not think that anyone in this thread is completely wrong. I think the encyclical letter in some sense fails to address the issue voiced in this thread. It discusses procreation being “undesirable”, but it does not address procreation being “life-threatening”. So we have a situation, where the reason for avoiding procreation is grave.
My brother voiced the idea, that no-one can be forced into a martyrdom. It has to be free-willed. In the present situation, having a child seems to be an act of martyrdom by the wife of threadstarter.
Then there are those voices that say that all christians are called to be martyrs. Hm yes, maybe that is where secualarism has kicked in. We live a christianity without martyrdom (?)
But then, should we force DavidHarpers wife to be the first to go back on the martyrs road?
Ok, enough thoughts from me now. I will take the discussion with my brother again tomorrow.
I get what your Brother is saying here. Murray N. Rothbard (a secular atheist Jew) once said, “No action can be virtuous unless it is freely chosen.”
And I can think of many who did not choose martyrdom, but accepted it.
I like that you are wrestling with this, because it shows that you can see valid arguments on all sides of this issue, which is a sign of maturity.
My position is not asking her to. It is simply asking the couple to refrain from relations during times when her natural signs (designed by God) read that they are likely to conceive. Forcing her would be to mandate that she and David interact (Maritally speaking) during times where her natural signs point to fertility. Or (God forbid) somone rąping someone in David’s wife’s situation during fertile times, which I would not wish upon anyone.
Same : )
I really think that this question is too important to not be addressed by a Catholic priest! You don’t want to live in sin or do something that is against God and His Church. I think you should ask a higher up or even your bishop if you can get an audience with him.
I invite you to read about Saint Gianna. She was a great Catholic saint against abortion. Truly, a saint for these evil times! When faced with a pregnancy that was dangerous Saint Gianna had to make a choice between herself and her child. She selflessly chose the child to live and to die making her a great saint and miracle worker. Should you selflessly forgo the sexual act in your marriage? A great question for your priest or bishop.
God bless you & I will be praying for your family to live like saints.
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As I get it, it was a discussion that began, when after the great persecution, a big number of priests had denied Christ. And the resolution was that they should be allowed to continue with the church. According to below link, it was in the 250’s.
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/persecution-in-the-early-church/
I was illustrating a point about the differences between force and non-force. No one wants to do anything to your Wife. It was a hypothetical.
I’m not claiming to be a man (I mean, I am a man, but if this is your definition of a man, I am not a man). I believe rąpe is the worst think one could ever do to another human being.
How am I a coward (besides that I’m not meeting you by the bike-rack and fighting you after school)? And a liar? What have I lied about?
Put your guns away sir, and use your rational intellect (which is a gift from God). It is what separates us from animals.
Again, how? Because I won’t fight you? I’ve already said that you are the toughest guy ever. But, then again, you think I’m a liar, so.
I see you edited your post about raping Davids wife and changed it’s meaning completely.
My family are carriers of a blood disorder. Years ago (when my sisters and I were having children), none of us were yet diagnosed. One sister had six miscarriages. She was given “clotting factor” (unsure what this was) and finally carried one child to term. She required a hysterectomy a month later. I had two children and had very unpredictable bleeding during both, and required a hysterectomy two months after giving birth after the second child. We were told after the first baby that I should have a tubal ligation—by the nun who was the chaplain in the hospital. The OB did not agree. Thank goodness. Blood disorders can be catastrophic but almost never are. I strongly urge you to get a consult with a hematologist. They have more experience with these things than most, but also, Do Your Own Research. Go onto Pubmed and search the name of the disorder and “childbearing.”
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Did you not get my private message? I explained how after re-reading what I said, how I could see that it could be taken the wrong way (as it was). So I clarified what I meant. Please check your message inbox and you will see my private message to you clarifying what I meant. And I also fixed my post to clarify what I was trying to convey. If you need me to further clarify, I can.
And if you want to ask me directly what I meant, I invite you to do so as well.
Thank you for your reply. I hear what you’re saying but one contributing factor for choosing vasectomy (in addition to saving my wife’s life) was that we already had three children and didn’t need (nor could we afford) any more.