I’m new here so please bear with me. My wife and I are catholic. My wife has developed a blood disorder which causes uncontrolled bleeding. When she gave birth to our third daughter she hemorrhaged severely and almost died. She was in intensive care for three days. Our doctor told us her next pregnancy may kill her. So our choice is this; either I get a vasectomy or she gets a tubal ligation. My question is are either of these more acceptable than the other in the eyes of the church?
Thank you for your consideration.
Welcome to the forum. I am sorry that your Wife is experiencing this blood disorder. That has to be tough.
The Church does teach that if one is treating the disease itself and not directly attempting to end human life (for instance in the case of say utero cancer) then the loss of unborn human life is tragic.
But, in your guys’ case, you are not treating the blood disorder by either of you getting broken (the tubal ligation or vasectomy).
Which is more acceptable than the other is probably a question for a moral theologian. I want to say that neither is good.
My Wife and I practice Natural Family Planning (NFP), which is both morally acceptable and nearly 99% effective when done correctly. I’m not saying that NFP is easy, but it is moral and natural. I know that this is not the answer that you wanted to hear.
There are Catholic Doctors who might be able to give you a second opinion. It could be that your Doctor is not Catholic and sees those two options as the only two options.
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I think that Cade is right that neither kind of sterilization is acceptable to the Catholic Church, but with NFP you are risking, so to speak, pregnancy, not ordinarily death. It reminds me of an old Christian comic I saw with, I think, a pig and a chicken, and the chicken, thinking eggs, says, “Let’s make a donation.” The chicken could make a donation and walk away, but the pig couldn’t. I would definitely get another doctor’s opinion. I’ve heard a few stories from people who got dire predictions that didn’t come true or weren’t echoed by a different doctor.
Divine Mercy Care (https://divinemercycare.org/) can give you good Catholic medical advice.
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Thank you for your responses. We have decided that I will get a vasectomy. It doesn’t make sense for us to use NFP because the risk of failure will result in an abortion. My wife’s life supercedes any consideration of catholic teaching.
If you go through with a vasectomy, are you and your wife going to continue having intercourse? If so, then that means you’re not only wanting a vasectomy to prevent pregnancy and possible fatal blood loss, but that you’re wanting to have intercourse out of lust and selfishness. Since the purpose of intercourse is procreation, if you’re going to refrain from procreating to prevent pregnancy to avoid a possible fatality, then you should refrain from intercourse rather than get a vasectomy or any other procedure done.
I think David understands this, but doesn’t care. I think his perception is (and I don’t want to speak for him) is that “the possible ends (the possibility that his Wife could die, according to one doctor, if they were to conceive a child) justify his means (getting broken),” but the truth is that the ends do not justify the means (though Jesuits would probably disagree ; )
David might argue that his potential decision is not selfish, because he is thinking of his Wife and rather than have her get broken, he is sacrificing his own self to save his Wife from potentially getting pregnant (and according to one doctor, dying). However, there is a selfish element here. Anytime we put our own ways in place of God’s ways, we are being selfish.
Rather than judge David (as he might interpret here, though we are judging his actions, not him personally), we should Pray for them, that they make the right decision, and not necessarily the easy decision (and I don’t mean that getting broken is an easy thing to have done to oneself, though my brother, an atheist, did say that getting “snipped” was very quick & easy).
I have a few questions for David:
- Are both you and your Wife Catholic? (It would be tough if my Wife was not Catholic and she did not want to live for God and I did. Or the opposite, my Wife wanted to live for God and I was not a Christian and did not see the point.)
- Did you and your Wife get a second opinion from another Doctor (one that might understand your situation, but also sees the moral dilemma that you and your Wife are in)?
- Would you be willing, even if you decide to go through with your decision to get broken, only be intimate with your Wife when her body shows signs of infertility? Sounds like a silly question, but this might show weather you are getting broken, because you do not trust NFP or your ability to live chastely during times your Wife’s body is showing signs of fertility or if you are indeed acting selfishly.
- Do you have a relationship with God? Or do you simply think God will understand?
I do think these questions are important to understanding your decision. We have established that you want to eliminate the possibility of your Wife possibly dying if she were to become pregnant. There are a few options on the table. Some moral and some not. There are Catholic Doctors who deal with this and may be able to give you more information. For me personally, I would seek another opinion from a Doctor who cares about both the physical and the moral aspects of this and who cares about both my Wife and souls.
I’m sorry but your message doesn’t make sense. Why would any normal healthy adult married couple not want to have intercourse? Also 'lust and selfishness" are an absurd and childish way to describe sexual desire in marraige.
There are a few important errors in your message; in this case the end does, in fact, justify the means. And when you say I am putting my own ways in place of “God’s ways” you are mistaking catholic teaching for God’s ways. Also I don’t need a second doctors opinion because I have direct first-hand eyewitness experience of what happened the last time my wife gave birth. She nearly died. I’m not sure what you can mean by “live for God”. If you mean mindlessly obeying catholic teaching then I would respectfully disagree. No responsible doctor would see any “moral dilemma” in my decision. Finally your last point about only having sex when my wife is infertile is so bizarre and incomprehensible that I am at a loss to respond to it.
I do believe that I have a relationship with God. I don’t think there will be a problem with His understanding of my motives or my actions. Unlike you I do not presume to know “God’s ways”. I can only hope that my good faith choices in life will be acceptable to Him. Whether or not those choices are in strict compliance with catholic teaching is of secondary importance.
If you continue to have intercourse when you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then you’re being disobedient, and placing your own desires (intention to have intercourse for solely the pleasure of intercourse) above God’s desires, because God desires that you be obedient by using intercourse with the intention to procreate as He intended. If you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then don’t have intercourse at all.
@DavidHarper I’m sorry to hear that you are facing this situation.
I don’t think you’re going to find the answer you want. I know how difficult it is to cease having relations (it is very painful both physically and emotionally). For me, the physical pain took about 18 months to subside. I don’t think the emotional side ever stops, as I miss it every single day.
In my situation, long (decades) before becoming Catholic, I had a vasectomy after my then-wife and I had our 2nd child. I had no idea that there was anything wrong with it until I had decided to become Catholic and started studying the laws of the Church.
So now, I know that if I were ever to remarry (only possible if my ex-wife [who I’m still married to according to God’s laws,] dies), I would then have to either remain chaste or have the vasectomy reversed and be open to further procreation.
Your situation is similar in that you naturally desire intimacy with your wife, but you can’t have that while at the same time not being open to procreation.
Maybe there’s a possibility of you and your wife being granted some sort of dispensation based on the circumstances. I’d suggest speaking to your Priest.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. It’s unusual on a catholic forum. You said you were unaware that there was anything wrong with vasectomy until you learned the laws of the church. Why do you believe that the “laws of the church” define moral right and wrong? This is an honest question. I am 50 years old. I went to catholic grammar school ( St Pascals in Chicago), catholic High school (St. Patricks in Chicago) and attended catholic mass every sunday for the first 15 years of my life. My wifes upbringing was pretty much the same as mine. My reason for mentioning this is to let you understand that I am more than familiar with catholic teaching. I’ve been struggling with it my entire life. I have come to the conclusion that any God who would condemn me for this decision is not a god that I wish to worship. I need a better God than that. My problem is not with God. That would be stupid. My problem is with the church and it’s “teaching”.
It might be perceived necessary, but still wrong. Just like stealing is wrong, but if my child was starving and I steal a loaf of bread, the stealing is still wrong, but a perceived necessary. The Jesuit’s situational ethics would say that it is not a sin, but this is where we disagree. And there are other ways to get the loaf of bread. I could work out a deal with the owner of the bread shop for instance. I could explain my situation with others who might be able to help.
Can you expand on this? I am saying that God’s ways are not our ways (which is Scriptural). Are you saying that our ways are God’s ways? Or are you saying something else? Not sure what you mean.
My Wife and I lost our baby boy late in the pregnancy. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to go through! And because of this experience, my Wife is scared to have another child. So, we have been dong Natural Family Planning (NFP for the past five years since). Getting broken is not on the table for us, because we do not believe that the ends justify the means, nor does it make good intentions right (which is literally in the Catechism).
I do not mean “mindlessly obeying Catholic teaching.” I am talking about a relationship with Him.
Let me ask you this. If Jesus and a “responsible” Doctor were in a room and each were telling your options. Would you go with the Doctor or God?
I think @Soul explained it pretty well.
So you simply think God will understand.
If you say so.
Again, you are only looking at to options. And you are pinning the Catholic teaching against your perceived understanding of who God is.
I appreciate you responding. You never answered my question if both you and your Wife are Catholic Christians. Do you both attend Mass weekly/daily? Do you dread, but go to Reconciliation at least once per year? Do you read the Bible? Do you Pray daily? Or are you culturally Catholic? Or maybe Chreastians (only attending Church on Christmas & Easter)? I’m not asking you this to judge, but to understand where you are coming from.
As I said, if my Wife and I were not evenly yoked, I don’t know that NFP would work, because we would both have a different understanding of what is moral and what is not. Truth is not subjective. It does not depend on what we think or what our situation is. We can express our feelings with God in Prayer and as our Father, He listens, but it does not change who God is. Listing to God should change us.
If I lived life not caring about The Truth and cared more about “my truth,” to use a phrase that our current generation lives by these days, I would have embraced the ways of this world.
You came to a Catholic Christian forum seeking answers. You did not get the answers that you wanted to hear. I’m sorry for this. If you go to a Jesuit forum, you might have gotten a different answer (one that is more to your liking). If you go to a Protestant forum, they might tell you “God understands; do whatever you think is best.” Or an Atheist forum, where they might say, “more acceptable to whom? The only one that really matters is you, and even this is debatable.”
I’m not telling you any of this to make you feel bad. I could tell you what you want to hear, but what good is there in that?
You are not my enemy. I do not see you as such. Your choice does not effect my life. If you want to get broken, that is on you. But, you cam here asking which is more acceptable and the answer is neither is acceptable. We sometimes here people who do immoral things say things like, “Well, at least I didn’t murder anyone.” As if the only two options is murder vs. this other immoral thing.
I would find a doctor who would not tell me I have to kill my innocent unborn human child, but one that wants to save both my Wife and my child. It is just easier for a Doctor to perform an abortion, just like “getting snipped” is easier than NFP.
I will tell you one last thing. The divorce rate among Married couples who use NFP is very low (and we can speculate why this is). May I ask how long you and your Wife have been Married? And again, I am Praying for you guys, because what you are going through is scary.
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There is no further point in continuing our discussion. You will never understand my argument. You are incapable of intelligent consideration of an opinion contrary to your own. Just like the catholic church is.
We’re all just trying to help out.
We as Catholics are called (not by the Church, but by tne Lord) to be “Childiike” and do what the Father says. But he doesn’t force it on anyone (though of course there are eternal consequences for not obeying what He commands).
Again I suggest you consult with a Priest as soon as you are able to. Best wishes as you navigate this situation.
False and uncalled for. What you want is to not only prevent a possible fatality if another pregnancy occurs, but still have intercourse just to have intercourse.
God intended intercourse for procreation. Therefore, if you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then don’t have intercourse. It’s only hard to do if you care more about what you want, rather than what God wants.
That’s not a Catholic Church opinion. That’s God’s Truth.
I agree with you that there may be eternal consequences for not obeying what He commands. It’s just that you and I differ about what He commands. Thank you for your best wishes. I never meant to offend anyone here. I’m sorry if I did. It’s difficult to have a meaningful conversation with someone who is certain that he knows “God’s truth”. Islamic fundamentalists are also certain of God’s truth. It’s the reason why a Muslim father douses his daughter with gasoline and sets her on fire if she disobeys Sharia law.
It’s in Scripture that God intended intercourse for procreation. Where in Scripture does it say that God intended intercourse for the purpose of accomplishing lust?
Intercourse doesn’t just involve one’s wife or husband, but also God, because He’s the one who infuses the spiritual part of man, their soul, into the newly conceived child. Therefore, intercourse is an act where a husband and wife co-create with God. It’s an act to be performed out of holiness, not lust, for the purpose God intended: creating new souls for Heaven, with one’s husband or wife in a holy marriage. That’s why I say if a married couple can’t or doesn’t want to procreate, then they should abstain from intercourse, because to have intercourse without the intention to procreate is done out of disobedience and lust, not obedience and holiness.
My wife and I have not had sex since the ER crisis after she gave birth which was over 3 months ago. She’s very sad and worried that I don’t desire her any more which isn’t true at all. It’s just that I’m so freaked out about what happened that I’m just not “in the mood”. I hope this will pass.
The world makes men and women think that “to be desired” means to make the other want to have intercourse with them just to have intercourse. That’s one of Satan’s lies attempting to unsanctify something that should be holy, and it causes sadness, resentment, paranoia, jealousy, insecurity, and so on, all things which are not of God. It shouldn’t be about “desiring her” or her “desiring you” to have intercourse just for that because that’s lust. One shouldn’t even look at another out of lust and intercourse isn’t to be used to accomplish lust, but rather procreation. Intercourse is an act where husband, wife, and God co-create with each other. Therefore, it’s an act to be desired out of obedience to God and accomplished in holiness for God and with God. If you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then don’t have intercourse, otherwise, to have intercourse without the intention to procreate is to misuse the act for what God intended: to create new souls for Heaven. I hope you will come to see this to be true, and if you do, explain it to your wife so that she understands.
No. Desire for ones spouse is one of the most Important things in a christian marriage. Even the Bible condones this. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5; " The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. DO NOT DEPRIVE EACH OTHER except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again…"
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Everything you say is nonsense. Every woman wants to be desired by her husband. Marital sex is not to “accomplish lust”. Desire in marriage is God’s precious gift. “The world” doesn’t make anyone think anything. “to be desired” means that the husband finds his wife desirable and the wife finds her husband desirable.