An important decision

You’re still treating intention and moral object as interchangeable, which is why your replies keep circling.

Your intention was either:
“avoid pregnancy,” or “avoid pregnancy to prevent my wife from possibly dying.”

But neither of those was your moral object.
Your moral object was:
“directly sterilize the sexual act so intercourse can continue without procreation.”

That is a different kind of act than:
periodic abstinence
total abstinence

Same intention.
Different chosen behavior.
Different moral species.

You said: “no normal healthy married couple would choose to not have sexual relations anymore.”
That doesn’t describe impossibility; it describes unwillingness.
Abstinence is physically possible, morally licit, and achieves the same intention — avoiding pregnancy.
So when you say no normal couple would choose it, you’re admitting it was a real option, just one you rejected because you didn’t want to give up intercourse.

And whether something is “normal” has no bearing on whether it is morally available.
“Normal” is both subjective and statistical — not moral.
What most people prefer has no bearing on what the act is.
If “most people do it” made something morally acceptable, then anything would become moral as long as enough people chose it — which is absurd.

And that’s exactly why the decisive factor in getting a vasectomy wasn’t “saving your wife” — abstinence would have done that — but preserving intercourse while eliminating its procreative meaning.

That is the moral object.
And repeating “my intention was X” doesn’t change the nature of the act you chose.

As for statistics: moral truth isn’t determined by how many people violate it.
If you reject Catholic moral reasoning, just say that.
But rejecting the framework is not the same as refuting the distinction.

I don’t know why you do not have a Wife :roll_eyes:

You may be joking, but you sound like a predophile. Seriously though, I Pray a Prayer of protection for any woman whom you pursue. That they may know that there is a better man for them out there. One who has self-control, does not call evil goo and good evil. One who loves the Lord with all of his heart, mind, and soul. One who protects children and does not desire to abuse them.

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I know this post is about 1 year old, but I would suggest you firstly consult with the Bishop’s office in your local Diocese before making a final decision. Why? …

A vasectomy is a form of direct sterilization (a surgical procedure intended to render a man incapable of procreation). The Catholic Church teaches that direct sterilization is morally unacceptable as a method of regulating births. – (Pope Paul VI. Humanae Vitae. 14) (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2399).

I pray you reconsider and be open to other alternatives that are possibly available. :revolving_hearts:

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He already had the vasectomy.

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Yes, exactly. I have read though many many of your posts, and I read/see exactly what you claim … that you’re goal is to learn from others here. I also have read of your apologies, and I believe you’re apologies are sincere. You have a humbleness about you, and your posts in response to others show a genuine openness to what others present to you.

I don’t seek to get anyone banned simply because of “debate”. Debate can be healthy and a way to reaffirm ones faith and belief. But you said something very important which I’ve quoted above, which if someone wished to debate with you, to do so through private messages.

There is a enormous difference between debate and intentional attacks meant to offend and disrespect. You know this, and so does every other person who posts here at CatholicTalk.

But these are just my personal opinions and the way I live out my faith.

Thank you for your response. +

I have not insulted anyone here anymore than they have insulted me. You have a very selective interpretation of the facts. Like all catholic polemics facts and logical argument are dismissed as “anti catholic bias”. It’s impossible to have an intelligent argument with you because you simply refuse to acknowledge or understand the argument from the other side. My decision to get a vasectomy was based on absolute objective fact. No amount of catholic “teaching” can change reality. No amount of catholic “teaching” can change the truth.

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And I would suggest you do the same thing.

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David,

First of all, you’re in a Catholic forum. This is a forum about Catholics for Catholics. If you’re going to post something that goes against Catholic teaching, in a Catholic forum, then expect to get pushback from Catholics. It’s really that simple man. If you don’t want to get into arguments like this, then don’t bring the subject up.

I’ve been quietly following this conversation, granted I haven’t been following the entire conversation, but I’ve been looking at this every now and then. I have yet to see anyone who fundamentally disagrees with you call you names and fling insults at you. You, on the other hand, have flung quite a few insults at others. Just to cite a few examples, in response to Mathetria you said “Apparently you’re not intelligent enough to understand my situation because you keep repeating the same irrelevant nonsense.” In response to Mathetria again, you said “Your argument is childish catholic nonsense.” In response to Mathetria again you said “I am incapable of making an argument in response to the kind of illogical nonsense you keep repeating.”

I don’t see anyone calling you names, or calling your points illogical or nonsensical. No, instead I see people simply saying they disagree with you, and instead of attacking your character, they refute your argument with points that support the claims they’re making. We’re all adults here David, so why are we talking like high schoolers? If you’re going to have a disagreement, that’s fine, but all of these adjectives aren’t necessary. If anything, you can just simply agree to disagree.

Look man, I have my own beef with Catholicism myself, but the fact of the matter is, this is a Catholic Forum. And, if you’re going to post something that goes against Catholic belief and doctrine, you should expect some amount of pushback. All you need to do Dave is explain your side of things without attacking someone’s character, it’s really not hard. It requires a bit of self-restraint is all, something I know you’re capable of doing.

No one ever said you have to like Catholicism. No one ever said you have to like Catholics. But, something we have to remember is Catholics are people at the end of the day. And as such, they deserve respect, just like you deserve respect as well. If you want someone to see your side of things, throwing playground insults isn’t the way to go about it. If anything, it makes your side look like a bunch of bullies, and no one likes a bully.

Again David, I get it. I have a lot of questions about Catholicism that a lot of people can’t answer. But there’s a fine line between having a civil argument in comparison to a fighting match. And honestly David, this isn’t a debate forum. It’s for Catholics to come together and share their faith. If you’re not going to, at the very least, show respect to a person, then you’re better off just walking away.

I came on this forum to learn, cause you can always learn something from someone, even if you disagree with them. And I have been learning, A LOT! But if you’re going to hurl insults at someone then, you have nothing of value to say. And by that point, there’s no point in even talking about it. Debate’s exist so we can learn from eachother, but if all we’re going to do is name-call, throw insults, etc… then we really are better being alone for a bit. Debate was never about winning, it was about learning from eachother’s side, even if you disagree.

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Well said, and politely, Earthsstudent.

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Thanks LIteralman. I do try to be as loving as I can, even though I don’t always come off that way.

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True. And my comment that had been flagged by another member, I agreed that it should be removed and so it was removed.

Are you not anti-Catholic though?

No, we get it. I know you think that Catholic Christians are dumb (and you have pretty much said as much—a few times).

I am glad that you posted here, because others may have a similar question and see things from another perspective than you have. You accuse others of not understanding your point-of-view. And as I have already said, I understand your point-of-view, though I would not have chosen the same path that you have chosen. You think that makes me stupid.

I do not look upon you as an idiot. I look at your choice with sadness. There is a difference.

I admit that I have been angry and combative in this discussion and I’ve said things that I should not have. Or that I should have said a different way. I do have a lot of latent hostility concerning the church as a result of my catholic upbringing and it often results in a lack of restraint and maturity on my part in discussions with catholics. I apologize for having insulted anyone here.

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