I made a pro-abortion friend mad

General
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Tonight, a friend at church started on a rampage about President Trump after I showed him the picture below.

If it doesn’t show up, it’s a sign that says:

“BIDEN WAS ALMOST FULL TERM SO THE DEMOCRATS HAD TO ABORT HIM.”

He literally hates President Trump & he started spewing all the usual lies.

So, I asked him how he, as a supposed Catholic, can vote for any Democrat when the Democratic party supports abortion 13 time on the Dem Party Platform statement.

He went into the usual stuff about how it’s a woman’s right to do what she wants to with her body.

So I asked him if he supported child abuse and he said that he did not.

I replied that cutting a child to pieces in a mother‘s womb and dragging out it’s body is the ultimate form of child abuse.

That’s stunned him and he asked me “when does the child receive a soul?“

I replied that our Catholic belief is that from the moment of conception. A child has a soul and asked how he did not know that.

Then he used the age-old argument of asking me what about cases of rape or incest and I replied that I did not have an answer, except to say that less than one percent of abortions are for that reason and abortion is used as birth control and our Catholic faith teaches that we should not support abortion in any way.

I told him that there are many priests who will, in their homilies, state that we cannot support abortion and will say that you cannot be Catholic and Democrat when the party supports abortion.

Thoughts?

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You did a really great job. Abortion is a stumbling block for a thinking Christian.
And you reminded your friend that it is barbaric. No one likes hearing that.

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Thanks Mary,

The church friend that I had this discussion with is a retired history, professor and history departments across the country are overwhelmingly Democratic,

I know because my wife worked for 16 years in the history department of a major university and only encountered 2 conservatives.

Some are avowed Marxist and they have no problem declaring such because of tenure, These are the people that are teaching young 18 to 24-year olds.

If I had to have the discussion again, I would remind him that our church declares abortion as an “intrinsic evil“ and there is no way that you can justify voting for an “intrinsic evil” & call one’s self Catholic.

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The problem of your friend not knowing basic Catholic teaching on abortion is the result of clergy failing to properly catechize those sheep entrusted to them as pastors of the flock.

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Hi Ignatius,

I tabled the Libertarian booth at our local Farmer’s Market this past Saturday and I got to meet and talk to both Democrats & Republicans.

I am a member of the Libertarian Pro-Life Caucus and am a delegate at our National Convention. Pro-Lifers showed up at the 2020 Convention and were able to remove the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life Plank from our Platform (something that had been attempted many times at past Conventions, but never thought I would ever see it happen).

There are more Pro-Abortion Libertarians than Pro-Life Libertarians at the moment, but this is changing. Unfortunately our nominated candidate for President, Chase Oliver, is advocated for Abortion. Past Libertarian candidates have remained neutral on the issue and said that they would not use your tax dollars to fund abortions. But, our current nominee views the unborn as less than human.

For this reason, I cannot vote for him. It would be like an abolitionist supporting someone who believed slaves were less than human.

After the Farmer’s Market, I had a Democratic booth volunteer, who goes to our Church, come up to me afterwards and said, “So you’re the Libertarians…”

He asked me if I ever thought about running for State Rep. I think, because he is thinking about maybe running for State Rep. I told him that my Brother had run for State Rep as a Republican in the previous Election and he also wanted me to run, but Libertarians had lost ballot access, because of a rule implemented by the GOP to kick Libertarians off the ballot.

Now that we have ballot access again, I may consider running in the future, knowing that Libertarians currently have not chance of winning a 3-way race, however, we do have a candidate, Michael White, in a 2-way race down in Arkansas, who has a chance.

When I got home, I messaged this Democratic Catholic, whom I spoke with, and told him that I was struggling with whether to vote for Chase Oliver or not to vote for him (for ballot access purposes only. If we get 3%, we gain/maintain ballot access in our State for an additional four years.) I then asked him how he can justify voting for Pro-Abortion candidates. I have not heard back from him. But, I hope that I have caused him to discern.

Trump is not 100% Pro-Life either. Trump says he is for tax-funded IVF, because “We need more babies,” but does not realize that common practice is to keep the healthiest baby and to discard the unhealthy babies. So, yes, you will have more babies, but even more abortions. We have a good friend who did IVF and she and her husband kept all three of their babies (aborted none), so they had triplets.

Fun Fact: The word in vitro is Latin for “in a glass.”

I recently listened to an interview with an ex-abortionist on the “Pints with Aquinas” Podcast. This OGBYN said, with every abortion he performed, the harder his heart would become. And the easier it was to take innocent human life. But, what really caused him to reflect was when he had two women, one in one exam room and one in another. Both were the same far along in their pregnancy. The one was having complications and wanted him to save the life of her unborn baby and the other wanted to get rid of her unwanted and unloved baby! How can you justify this?

The worst story he told (stop reading if you are non-desensitized) was when he though he had killed the baby (this was in the early 90’s I believe, before they started using more lethal forms of abortion) but when he delivered the baby, the baby was further along than he thought and the baby survived and was crying. He didn’t want the mother to hear her baby crying so he threw this tiny human into the bucket and covered her with a cloth. Realizing what he had done, he tried to suffocate the child with the cloth, but one of the nurses came in and they took the baby to an incubator and tried to resuscitate her.

It wasn’t long after this that he experienced a conversion of heart while on a trip to Southern Europe with his Mother. His hardened heart was made softer as he confessed his sins to a Priest at Medjugorje.

Sorry, I got off-topic here, but my point is, that Abortion is more of a heart thing than a political one. In Randy England’s book, Free is Beautiful, he says, “It is clear that in a libertarian society, abortion will not be ended where the people disbelieve in the humanity of the unborn child.”

As long as half the Country, half of Catholics, and half of Democrats (though I would bet it is more like 90%, because they have made their politics their religion), and half of Libertarians believe the unborn are less than human beings, they will justify the taking of innocent human life.

In the case of rape or incest, take the life of the evil individual who committed the crime. Not the innocent human life who had nothing to do with it! Though I am against the death penalty (which is another topic for another day).

Hope you have found something of value here in my rambling. Pray for your friend, that God will soften his heart on this issue. Though his camp tried to use empathy to justify their beliefs, it is truly an inversion of that which is good, true, and beautiful. I recently heard the term “toxic empathy” the other day, and I love this term, because that is what it is.

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Cade,

Thanks for the reply.

The reason that this is all a mess should be laid at the feet of the Catholic Church itself.

Since 1973, our church has talked a good game, but they are more worried about keeping people happy and keeping the pews full.

Their attempt at both has been an abject failure as we see Catholic schools and churches close around the country & people in church are divided.

Some, like me, want our priest to speak out regularly about the evils of abortion and how it should not be supported in any way by either political party and state the difference between the parties.

Others don’t want to hear anything that borders on the topic of abortion or any information that might give Catholics real formation. They are hoping that as long as they’re not told that abortion is a sin, you can continue to support it through your vote.

So, is our Catholic Church lukewarm on the abortion issue? I’d say yes. I think that there are some great priest out there that do a good job informing their flock, but overall I give the Catholic Church an F.

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Our priest asked me if I would rather vote for a party that believes that abortion under any condition is a mother’s right or a party that would allow some abortions.

My answer was “Father, it is obvious that a Catholic must vote for the party that will save even one life as opposed to one that would kill all.“

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This election, the Constitution Party is the real Pro-Life Party. Randall Terry, their Presidential candidate, saved a woman from having an Abortion, and even adopted the baby and raised her as his own! However, Randal Terry did not get on our State’s ballot.

This being said, Peter Sonski, of the American Solidarity Party is on our State’s ballot as an “Other-Party Candidate” and I know that a few men in our Bible Study have decided to vote for him, because they cannot in good conscience vote for President Trump, based on his current push for IVF.

I would argue that, “It’s a Two-Party System” or “We have to vote for the lesser of two evils,” is luke-warm when there are candidates on the ballot who are more Pro-Life than these two major candidates.

The canned response is, “Yeah, but those candidates are non-viable.” Do you know what the Libertarian candidate says about unborn human beings? That they are non-viable. I told him early on in a tweet that this is a derogatory term. I get that it has a medical meaning, but this medical meaning is flawed, because, technically an infant would be considered non-viable if left alone. An elderly person could be viewed as non-viable if left alone. Do we not pay attention to them, because they are non-viable? Or worse, do we justify euthanizing them? Do we ignore the better candidates or worse, remove them from politically being, because they are perceived as non-viable or a threat to the lives of the major political Parties?

The way to get better candidates in the two old Parties is for them to lose, because more individuals voted for these better candidates. Rewarding bad candidate or lukewarm candidates, when there are better candidates will only result in more bad candidates.

This is how I see it. If you are a lesser of two evils (short game) kind of voter, some Popes in the past agree with you. If you are a, I don’t want to vote for evil kind of voter (long game), then there is a Catholic Christian argument for this as well. I happen to choose the latter.

If the Christian in Revelation 3:15-17 said to God, “Lord, I chose the lesser of lukewarmness in a lukewarm system,” how do you think God would respond when there was a third way? His way: Love the Lord (not government) with all your heart and love thy neighbor (not by government force).

No matter who wins or loses this November, Christ is still King. Jesus is still the way, the truth, and the life. In spite of what Caesar does, Jesus is more concerned about His Father’s Kingdom; not our kingdom come, but His will be done.

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Mad pro-abortion people: At the Life Chain in Springfield, Pa., a few weeks ago, some of the passersby cursed at us. At the abortion clinic where I usually pray once a week, we get a lot of insults and curses. Two weeks ago, as usual I said four words to a woman who was approaching the clinic: “Free help is available,” offering her a packet with information. The woman who had brought her to the clinic started yelling at me, over and over, “You are wasting your life!” When I prayed weekly outside an abortion clinic in Alexandria, Va., one man came on several occasions and shouted at us for a long time. One week I asked him, “Did you lose a son or daughter to abortion?” He said yes and that he wasn’t sorry. I’ve concluded that the ones who get angry may have had their consciences touched.

By the way, I used to be a registered Republican, but this fall I joined the Solidarity Party. I got tired of being told (even by the Pope, I heard) to vote for the lesser of two evils. I don’t want to vote for evil at all. I’ve read that Trump and Vance do not want restrictions on chemical abortions, which I understand to be most abortions now; women take the pills and then flush their tiny babies down the toilet. This, then, would be legal and tolerated (as it is now) even in the great America that Trump and Vance claim they want to recreate.

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MDD,

I wholeheartedly agree, and I’ve said that very thing to my Nigerian priest.

I might as well have been talking to my labrador retriever.

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I agree.

I ran into a fellow churchgoer when I was out to dinner with my wife the other night. He is of Hispanic descent and very conservative.

He told me that all three of his kids are now out of college and not one of them attends Catholic Church any longer. He said “where did I go wrong?“

I told him that he didn’t go wrong anywhere, our church went wrong!!!

Every Sunday, our priests should continue our religious formation and the majority don’t. Instead, they mostly give a soft homily that makes sure that no one is offended or challenged.

I will give our Nigerian priest a little bit of credit on this point. Occasionally he challenges our congregation & does instruct. When he does, many of us talk to him after mass & give him an Attaboy. :grinning:

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Thank you for sharing. I think there is truth to what you have said here.

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Saint Monica probably felt this same way.

This is a common feeling on the part of Parents. I left the Faith in College too, but God and the Prayers of others never gave up on me.

So many young people are making their politics their religion and are finding purpose in un-Godly movements. Many are being told that Christians are the enemy. That we are the ones who hate. Some do, but most do not. Truth is perceived as hatred and individuals wallowing in darkness, are repelled by the light.

Jesus said, “If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.” (John 15:18-19)

“Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, on your part, live at peace with all.” (Romans 12:17)

“Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, Pray for those who mistreat you.” (Luke 6:27)

“Parents, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up with the training and instruction of the Lord.” (Ephesians 6:4)

Continue to love your children and Pray for them. And Pray for your friends who have put their politics above their Christian Faith. Their politicians will eventually fall down from their pedestals, yet God will remain true.

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Earlier this month, Father David Michael Moses sang and preached one evening at our church. He mentioned that the closer you get to God, the more light shines on you, and the more you realize your sinfulness. Some people avoid the light, he said, and some want to turn it off. The Bible says the same.

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Literal man,

You are correct.

I’ve gotten the reputation at our church of being a “Republican.” Half of our church appears to be aligned with the Democrats.

When I’ve told friends that I’ve spoken to our priest, in his office, about how we are not strong in the pro-life area, my friends tell me, after the shock wears off, that they wish they were brave enough to talk to our priest the way I do.

I tell them that our priest constantly asks for people to come to his office with any questions or concerns and that he means it.

Even though I’m sure that he doesn’t like everything I say to him (that mostly comes from the traditional Catholic background that I have), he does appreciate my meeting with him, I think.

Maybe it’s a “keep your friends close and your enemies closer“ situation on his part. :grinning:

The only question I ever asked our Democratic brothers is “how can you vote for any politician that supports abortion when our church teaches “life from the moment of conception.“

Through the years several have answered “I separate my religion and my politics.“

You cannot argue with that kind of lunacy and priests, due to their lack of constant Catholic formation to the flock, only contribute to the problem.

A good 15 years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting Abby Johnson, the former Director of PP out of college Station, Texas. She had a conversion to the Catholic faith and spoke at a first Friday of the month lunch that I attended.

She told us that the majority of young women that showed up at Planned Parenthood for an abortion identified as “Catholic“ when they filled out the paperwork.

What does that say about our religious formation?

Ignatius

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Most young people haven’t made their Faith their own. They are just going through the motions (#NotAll). I think we need to do Confirmation younger, maybe 4th or 5th grade. For one, the special graces from the Holy Spirit. Second, they need to know that Confirmation is not Graduation, but rather making the serous decision to choose Christ personally for themselves and embracing the Faith as their own.

One can be catechized and not be open to receiving. They hear what is being taught (in one ear), but do not internalize it (out the other ear). How many times have you hears a revert say, “I was never taught…” Chances are they were taught, but they were not at a place in their life to receive it.

It is like a gift. We can open a gift, we can reject a gift, we can share this gift with others, we can be grateful for a gift, we can be ungrateful for the gift. What we do with this gift is up to us (free-will), but to blame the gift-giver is flawed. A gift is undeserved.

Life is a gift. Both this physical life, the spiritual and religious life.

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Here is something to ponder:

When President Obama became President, more Americans purchased guns.

Let’s say President Trump is re-elected, do you believe more or fewer Americans will want to kill their babies (through abortion on demand)?

  • More
  • Fewer
  • Pondering…
0 voters
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Talking to pastors: my pastor, thank God, is prolife and reverent. We have the Greater Philadelphia Prolife Union newsletters in the back of the church, and he encourages people to read them. The parish bulletin has a prolife item every week, and events such as Life Chain, 40 Days for Life, and the Philadelphia and Pennsylvania Marches for Life are always mentioned. A friend at another parish cannot persuade his pastor to act for life.

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Cade,

I couldn’t answer your poll because I don’t believe President Trump’s re-election will affect the abortion issue. With his help, abortion has been thrown back to the states where it should’ve been in the first place.

Actually, abortion should’ve been considered murder by SCOTUS from the start in 1973 and banned completely, except in extreme situations.

Since 1973, abortion has been used as a form of birth control and respect for life has plummeted as a result. We may as well invite foreign invaders into our country to kill us.

Wait, we’ve already done that!!!

And, our church reacted poorly to Roe v. Wade. Our church should’ve stressed that no Catholic should be supporting abortion in any way including by vote.

I wonder if voting for Democrats and supporting abortion will keep all those voters out of heaven?

Didn’t Jesus say “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea?”

If that’s the condemnation for leading a “little one” into sin, the condemnation for killing a little one in a mother’s womb must be infinitely worse.”

Does being slathered with honey and tied to a fire-ant hill for eternity sound severe enough?

Probably not!!!

Ignatius

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I respect this. I did a little research after I poste this poll and found that there really is not much of a change from President to President.

However, in 1975 only 19% of Democrats polled by Gallup said that abortion should be legal for any reason. Now it is up to 65% of Democrats who do. It really jumped from 2019 (39%) to 2024 (65%).

Republicans polled in 1975 were at around the same level as Democrats then, at 18%, but have dropped to 12% currently who believe abortion should be legal for any reason. In 1990 they were at 29% and steadily began to lower from there.

Though there are currently more Pro-Abortion Libertarians in the Party, the number of Pro-Life Libertarians is growing, as the Republican Party, as an institution, becomes less and less Pro-Life.

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Catholic moral thinkers, and I agree them, say that if a mother is treating a disease, such as uterine cancer, and the loss of child is a result, though tragic, is not considered an abortion in the same sense as someone who goes into PP and requests to terminate the life of the human being within her; because the intent was not to kill the baby, but to heal the mother of the cancer. Now, this is not a choice that I would choose, because the life of my child is more important to me than my own.

Why do I bring this up? What if a person is not voting Democratic, because they want to defend a woman’s “right” to kill her own unborn child, but rather to heal the diseases that she feels plagues our Country.

I have already voted, but I struggled with whether or not to vote for Chase Oliver. Republicans in my State have set up the rules to say that in order for Libertarians to maintain ballot access, they must get 3% of the vote in either the Presidential or Governor race in their respectful Election. Chase Oliver advocates for Abortion. But I would be voting for him for ballot access, so that we can run local candidates in future elections and not for Abortion. After heavy discernment, I decided that I could not in good conscience vote for Chase.

Did anyone happen to watch the Free & Equal Presidential Debates last night? Randall Terry of the Constitution Party was the only Pro-Life candidate on the Debate stage. He did not end up getting on the ballot in my State and I disagree with him on about half of his views, but I agreed with him 100% on the Life issue.

I respected that Chase Oliver pointed out that there are both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice Libertarians before he clarified his own position (which is the wrong position), but the fact that he was honest, that there are many Pro-Life Libertarians in the LP. When it comes to economics, Chase is solid. Randall Terry, also pretty decent on economics. Jill Stein, horrible on the both the Life issue, liberty, and economics.

But, if you have not had a chance to watch either last Night’s debate or the one from back in July, that Thomas Massie co-moderated a week after his Wife sadly passed, they are both worth the watch. The Free & Equal debates are so much more civil than the National Debates run by Debate Committee. The Free & Equal Debates are more similar to how Debates used to be run, back when the Women League of Voters were in charge of the National Debates.