What did God tell the first humans, the first man and wife? “Be fruitful and multiply.” Why be fruitful and multiply? To populate the Earth and ultimately, and most importantly, populate Heaven with souls for God. Regarding what is said in Corinthians, what marital duty? Creating new souls for God. Do not deprive each other of what? Creating new souls for God. Come together again for what? Creating new souls for God. Intercourse is an act where husband, wife, and God co-create with each other to create new souls for Heaven. Therefore, it’s an act to be desired out of obedience to God and accomplished in holiness for God and with God. If you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then don’t have intercourse. Otherwise, to have intercourse without the intention to procreate is to disobey, misuse the act for what God intended, and out of lust which is not of God.
I deleted my last sentence because it was a mistake made in anger. When you attempt to debate me you bring a knife to a gunfight. I will no longer respond to you since I am incapable of remaining civil and courteous with you. My failing. You have reminded me of why I came to despise the authoritarian hypocrisy of the Catholic church.
You’ll find human hypocrisy everywhere, not just the Catholic Church. But, then there’s God’s Truth. And, you should’ve at least pointed out which part below you take issue with and why before leaving our discussion.
“What did God tell the first humans, the first man and wife? “Be fruitful and multiply.” Why be fruitful and multiply? To populate the Earth and ultimately, and most importantly, populate Heaven with souls for God. Regarding what is said in Corinthians, what marital duty? Creating new souls for God. Do not deprive each other of what? Creating new souls for God. Come together again for what? Creating new souls for God. Intercourse is an act where husband, wife, and God co-create with each other to create new souls for Heaven. Therefore, it’s an act to be desired out of obedience to God and accomplished in holiness for God and with God. If you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then don’t have intercourse. Otherwise, to have intercourse without the intention to procreate is to disobey, misuse the act for what God intended, and out of lust which is not of God.”
I’m going with my wife to talk to a priest and get another opinion. I know that priests may vary in opinion depending on how conservative or liberal they are. We do occasionally go to mass at our nieghborhood catholic church. Ten years ago we attended a huge evangelical mega-church in northern illinois ( Willow Creek) but we felt lost in the shuffle because it was so big.
Ok. May the Holy Spirit be with you.
Soul ; Thank you very much.
I understand your argument, and I think it is immature (from a spiritual and moral perspective). Some day maybe you will look back and realize how you did not make a good decision and see that it was a selfish decision. Yes, I understand that you see it as a sacrifice for your Wife. And it is in a worldly sense.
I am not trying to push you away. I will continue to Pray for you and your Wife’s situation and I invite you to Pray for me too.
I have to push back here a little. God intended for Marital intimacy for procreation and the unitive aspects of the Marital act. The problem is when we separate one from the other.
In the case of the barrier method or getting broken, two are not truly becoming one (and thus removing the unitive aspect).
In the case of artificial forms of contraception, like using the pill or other means, this removes the procreative aspect.
And I get that David is afraid that his Wife could get pregnant if he and his Wife abstain during fertile times. In which there are other way to show your love for one another during this time. Just like there are many ways in which we can grow closer to Christ when we are not physically receiving His body (Prayer—communication, Adoration—spending time with one another, Reading Scripture—learning together, Fellowship—spending time with family, Singing Hymns & Praises—complimenting one another, Reconciliation—forgiving one another, Service—doing things for others together, and so many other ways to grow in relationship with one another). And these are not in place of the Marital Act, but in addition to.
There are times when it is prudent not to receive Holy Communion. It does not meant that God loves us any less. If anything it strengthens our relationship, because we are doing what is good, though it might not feel good at the time.
When we receive unworthily (separating the unitive from the procreative aspects of the gift).
When we receive worthily, Jesus does not withhold His grace (for if He did, He would be separating the procreative from the unitive).
So is true in our Marriage. Which is why I do not believe David truly understands what damage he could be doing to his Marriage long-term.
Thank you David. I too used to attend an aspiring mega-Church a little over a decade ago. I met some awesome people there (some of whom are now Catholic : )
Again, no hard feelings. I genuinely do care about you and your Wife (which is strange, because I don’t even know you).
What did God tell the first humans, the first man and wife? “Be fruitful and multiply.” Why be fruitful and multiply? To populate the Earth and ultimately, and most importantly, populate Heaven with souls for God. Regarding what is said in Corinthians 17:3-5, what marital duty? Creating new souls for God . Do not deprive each other of what? Creating new souls for God . Come together again for what? Creating new souls for God. Intercourse is an act where husband, wife, and God co-create with each other to create new souls for Heaven. Therefore, it’s an act to be desired out of obedience to God and accomplished in holiness for God and with God. If you can’t or don’t want to procreate, then don’t have intercourse. Otherwise, to have intercourse without the intention to procreate is to disobey, misuse the act for what God intended, and out of lust which is not of God.
When a husband and wife have intercourse just to have intercourse, it becomes out of lust of the body.
This isn’t my first rodeo. I’m 50 years old and I’ve given catholicism and it’s teachings far more thought and consideration than have most others here. I know exactly what I’m doing. Birth control is only one problem I have had with the church. There have been others. There is no “true religion”. Thank you for your prayers.
You could be 100 years old and you’d still be mistaken. God didn’t tell Adam and Eve to go have intercourse just to have intercourse. He told them to be fruitful and multiply to populate for the Earth and ultimately (and hopefully) for Heaven. It’s a holy act where the husband, wife, and God of the Universe co-create together. Satan subtly twists this and convinces people it’s what unites two together and it’s one of the ways they show love and compatibility and so on. Satan disguises lust as love, but it’s a false love. Your own wife said she doesn’t feel “desired” unless you want to have intercourse with her, and until you do, she feels sad and rejected. Do you think a person would feel that way if it was God’s intention for a husband and wife to have intercourse for intercourse? No, because it’s not the purpose of intercourse! It’s not the true way in which God wants husbands and wives to be desired and loved!
I feel I should provide some background about myself. I spent ten years studying both the Old and New Testament Bibles. I carried on personal email correspondences with the authors of books about Jesus. Some of those books are E.P. Sanders ; “The Historical Figure of Jesus”, Reza Aslan ; “Zealot”, Ray Martin ; “Philosophical Overview of the Quest for the Historical Jesus”. I studied the authorship and dates of the Gospels and the dates and origin of the books of the Old Testament. I mention all this only to explain that I have devoted much time and study. I learned over those years that the Roman Catholic Church and it’s teachings are far from infallible.
" You could be 100 years old and you’d still be mistaken". So could you.
I could also be right and I am. Your own wife proves what I say. What comes from God doesn’t make people feel sadness, rejection, paranoia, and so on.
…during fertile times.
Do you skip over the Song of Songs or do you believe it not to be inspired. Or do you believe it to be strictly allegory? Or something else?
In the words of Venerable Pee-Wee, “I know you are, but what am I?!” ; )
I am bowing out of this conversation. I have said pretty much all that I can say.
“The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.” — Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Cade_One ;
Good idea. I was arguing with a fool. I should have known better.
“A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his [own] opinion.” — Proverbs 18:2
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.” — Proverbs 1:7
“A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish man despises his mother.” — Proverbs 15:20
“A wise man’s heart inclines him to the right, but a fool’s heart to the left.” —Ecclesiastes 10:2
“The discerning sets his face toward wisdom, but the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth.” — Proverbs 17:24
“The fool folds his hands and eats his own flesh (or snips his weiner ; ).” — Ecclesiastes 4:5
I know I had nothing more to say, but then this verse just popped into my head : )
“No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose pęnis has been cut off may come into the assembly of the LORD.” — Deuteronomy 23:2
In all fairness it is talking to a gathered community of Israelites, but the Early Church Council of Nicaea (325 AD) also spoke against voluntary castration among clergy (except for medical or at the hands of barbarians). Medical would imply like testicular cancer or a freak accident with a Lawn Mower 3000 ; )
What did God tell the first humans, the first man and wife? “Be fruitful and multiply.” Why be fruitful and multiply? To populate the Earth and ultimately, and most importantly, populate Heaven with souls for God.
Regarding what is said in Corinthians 17:3-5, what marital duty? Creating new souls for God. Do not deprive each other of what? Creating new souls for God. Come together again for what? Creating new souls for God.
Additionally, there’s this: “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled; but God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.” (Heb. 13:4)
All of this means that when a husband and wife come together to have intercourse, it should always be for that intent, and to abstain from intercourse until they come together again for that purpose. To have intercourse without the intention to procreate is to use intercourse to satisfy bodily lust. And, even when having intercourse with the intent to procreate, there still shouldn’t be lust, or lewdness. It’s an act where husband, wife, and God co-create with each other to create new souls for Heaven, and thus should be committed out of holiness.
Again, how in the Song of Songs is God saying intercourse should also be used to satisy lust of the body.