Dear dd, I am sincerely moved by the power of your mind. The average “believer” has probably never even read or heard of the texts that you have studied, which are the basis of Catholicism today.
A person of my intellectual caliber could never defeat you in debate, especially since you base your reasoning on your unquestionable faith in the writings of the fathers of the Catholic Church, just I base mine on the authority of the ancient Vedic literatures.
From what you write, it appears that you embrace the concept that the body and soul are one, that the atoms and molecules of the material nature, which are not different from the earth in your front lawn, are capable of consciousness…… that life is produced by a mature combination of molecules, by the inconceivable power of God. In other words, according your conception, there is no difference between spirit and matter, but that spirit is the symptom of matter, when properly fabricated. I cannot embrace this idea, but I do understand that your understanding is not based on the power of mundane logic, but on unshakable faith in the teachings of the founders of the Catholic Church. Therefore it is best to let the matter rest.
Re: the 14 planetary systems, the Vedic literatures do not describe them as planes of existence, but literally as planetary systems, higher and lower. However, at the same time, it is described that the composition of the bodies of the beings on the higher planets are not made of the gross material elements, like the bodies on our earth planet. Their bodies are made of subtle material energy…….similar to the church’s concept of angels. They can travel at the speed of mind, appearing where they wish. They do not have gross material forms.
My thought is, that rather than trying to convince each other, our conversation is an opportunity for me, to learn and understand the cosmology, the axiomatic conceptions of the Catholic Church. Generally, people simply are “members” of one church or another. But you have a scholarly understanding of you faith. I very much appreciate that.
In addressing my question as to why God would place us into the material creation, in total ignorance of our relationship with him, in conditions of the greatest struggle and turmoil, and subject us to the experiences of old age, disease and death…….The Bible does speak of the heavenly host, those souls who live with God in the spiritual realm, where there is no birth, no death, where life is eternal, without beginning and end. But God has placed us here, in a place where we have to surrender our rebellious spirit of independence, and accept that our real identity as spirit souls, is to love the Lord, our God, with all of our heart, mind and strength. I am interested to know if Saint Aquinas has explained for our understanding, why God has chosen to arrange our lives in this way. As I think you are aware, the Vedic conception is, that we, in the material realm, are the fallen angels, who are placed here for our redemption, and that God sends His representatives, like Jeremiah, and Jesus, to guide us back home, as prodigal sons and daughters. I am sure that you are aware of the activities of human beings on earth, from a historical point of view, and from what is going on in this world today. Imperialism is the history of our planet. Exploitation, slavery on all continents, endless wars…..the Vedic literatures explain that this is the activity of the soul that envies the position of God, and cultivates the desire to be the supreme proprietor, the supreme controller, and the supreme enjoyer. In this way, Veda explains, God directs our envy of Him towards each other. Each of us is trying to be God, as much as our individual capacity for power permits. The stronger man, becomes a president, or monarch, or prime minister……and then desires to conquer other nations. The child in the playground wants the other children to play by his rules. The game is the same. The husband wants to exploit the wife. The wife wants to exploit the husband. And when they don’t get what they want from each other, they divorce. But their union is established in the name of love.
I see in your answer that Aquinas postulates that the soul doesn’t exist prior to the creation of the material body. This is a new concept for me. According to Vedic literature, the soul is eteranal, just as God is eternal.”Eternal” means having no beginning and no end. But Aquinas is saying that the soul has a historical starting point. This is new for me.
There is so much evidence of individuals having experience of past lives, of little children describing to their parents where they lived in a past life, the house in another country, the people, their relationships, etc. And when going to investigate these claims of the children, it all seems to prove correct. There are books describing these phenomena.
Also, there are yogis, or even people in everyday life, who experiences what is called, “astral travel”. They can leave their bodies and travel to different places, and then return to their bodies. This is similar to the reports of NDE, “near death experiences”, wherein the consciousness of the person, leaves the body (which may be in a coma) and see Jesus, or past family members, etc., and then return to the body. In other words, there seems to be evidence that the body and spirit are two different things. The body of a dead person will compost, and become earth again. But the soul is eternal.
You make mention of the Council of Florence (1439), rejecting the concept of reincarnation. This means that this discussion has been going on for centuries and is not a new subject. From my point of view, the Council of Florence is made up of men, who are discussing things that are beyond their scope of personal experience. On the other hand, there are people who remember their past lives, and describe the details which can be verified. However, I do respect that you have faith in the philosophy of reality as it is presented by the Catholic Church.
Another point of discussion, it the idea of salvation. The Vedic literatures, in agreement with the teachings of Jesus, as presented in the Bible, do not state that one can achieve salvation by being a good person. There will be sewing and reaping, according to got our actions. This is the “law of karma”, and the reason why one person is born as Prince Harry, and grows up in a palace with servants, and another person is born crippled, paraplegic, or the son of a prostitute. etc. The idea is, as Jesus teaches, “Do unto others as you would have then do unto you.”, because this is the law. Or, as the. man in the street says, “What goes around, comes around.”But Jesus also says, “it is not by good works alone”, that one can enter the kingdom of God. Rather, Jesus explains, one must “love the Lord, thy God with all our heart, and all of our strength.”, which means that every thought, word and deed, must be performed with a loving desire to be pleasing to God. This is the price that Jesus describes. Jesus says that those who are materially successful, because of being “good people” can’t know God, any more than a camel can be pushed through the eye a needle. So, it is not by “good works”, that one can enter the Kingdom of God, according to Jesus, and not according to Vedic teachings. We must become lovers of God, not merely by obedience, but by the spontaneous feelings of love of the heart. And this, is what Jesus came to teach us. The Jews were following the laws of Moses, the 10 commandments, etc. But Jesus came to give the next step……love of God. That is the only next step. simply saying, “I accept Jesus as my savior”……anyone can say like that. But Jesus also describes that at the time of judgement, when the soul says, “I did this in your name, ai did that….”, Jesus will say, “I never knew you.” So what is this “knowing”? Jesus is saying, that he “knows” us, or recognizes us, as much as we “know” him. And what does this mean? it means that we have to accept the yoke that he wares.i And what is that yoke? It is the yoke of love of God. He asks us to accept it. He doesn’t ask us to become church members, or to accept the teachings of Aquinas. He asks us to become lovers of God. Not lovers of family, society, friendship and nation. I have read in Bible that Jesus says he has come to tear the family apart, so that he can claim that one soul, who is ready to truly follow what he wishes to share with him.
It appears that you believe that his material body is going to arise up out of the grave and walk around… I am more inclined to accept the idea or “ashes to ashes, and dust to dust.” The soul is eternal, and this material body is a punishment…….the punishment given to Adam and Eve. We have traded our eternal life for a sojourn in “the valley of the shadow of death”, also known as the material world, where we earn our keep by the sweat of our brow, where we come with nothing, and leave with nothing, where everyone aspires to be “king for a day”, in spite of the fact that Jesus offers us chance to have eternal life.
Thank you, dd, for sharing with me. Although I cannot embrace all of the understandings that you are putting forward, I do find it informative……there is really nothing more important to us than to understand, “Why am I here, Why and I suffering, and what is the purpose of life?” Hare Krishna! (May you be always in communion with God through the mercy of his son, the most glorious Lord Jesus Christ).
