You (and presumably others who have similar religious beliefs) believe God has instructed the church about what is appropriate behavior (or so it appears to me, please correct if I am wrong).
So how come he has not given very clear instructions to the church leadership about appropriate behavior? For example, you don’t have to be a religious genius to understand that shifting (protecting) a suspected pederast priest from church to church, not only harms the church and its people, but is a FELONY?
How come God has not somehow CLEARLY instructed cardinals, popes, and others that making negative comments about others, most frequently Jews, violates the teachings of Jesus? That abusing students emotionally or physically is wrong?
Somehow, lay people, even non-Catholics and atheists, understand all that. Indeed, many seem to understand it better than believers and church officials.
There is Sacred Scripture (The Bible). There is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which basically describes what we believe and why we believe it). There is Canon Law (which governs the internal workings of the hierarchy of the Catholic Christian Church). There are Encyclicals (which are papal letters either addressed to the other Bishops, Priests, or Lay communities, but are less binding). There are the writings of the Early Church Councils.
Jesus, who is God incarnate, gave the authority, “to loosen and to bind on Earth,” to the Apostles and their successors (Matthew 18:18) and even more specifically to St. Peter (Matthew 16:19). And with this authority comes responsibility and a sense of duty, which some have failed to live up to.
I don’t know how familiar you are with the New Testament, but the Apostles were human beings just like you and I. They made mistakes while Jesus was with them and yet, He still chose them to lead His Church after He was gone. And yes, He sends the Holy Spirit to guide them (John 14:15-20), but this does not mean they are made into robots. They still make mistakes like you and I. They still have free-will, as all human beings do. The Pope is not God, nor is he a deity. His job is to protect the Sacred Tradition passed onto us from Jesus to the Apostles and their validly ordained successors (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
If the validly ordained are purposely teaching things or behaving in ways that are contrary to the Faith, then there are actions that should be taken against them. You will find these in Canon Law. And if one commits serious crimes, then he should be tried in a court of law, just as anyone else.
My understanding of the bible is that god somehow “inspired” Mark et al to write the books of the bible. So then, how come there are so many contradictions in the bible?
And for that matter, how come so much anti-Semitic stuff?
And re church officials making mistakes, I find it very interesting that all the “mistakes” that have been made by church organizations, (1) were VERY clearly violating the teaching of Jesus, and (2) were pointed out by fallible humans, and not somehow revealed to those church leaders by god.
And re Canon law,my recollection is that it instructs clergy to investigate certain kinds of behaviors, such as (suspected) sexual activity of clergy with minors (clearly, that sort of thing has been going on for centuries), and yet, the bishops failed to investigate, and instead shifted suspected abusers from one church to another.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says it like this, "God is the author of Sacred Scripture. ‘The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.’ (CCC 105)
God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. ‘To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.’ (CCC 106)
The inspired books teach the truth. ‘Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.’ (CCC 107)
Still, the Christian faith is not a ‘religion of the book.’ Christianity is the religion of the ‘Word’ of God, a word which is ‘not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living.’ (CCC 108)
In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words. (CCC 109)
But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. ‘Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.’" (CCC 111)
And then it goes into the three main criteria for interpreting Scripture. Dr. Scott Hahn wrote an entire book on this cleverly titled, “Scripture Matters.”
The Catechism goes on to say in paragraph 134, "All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, ‘because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ’ (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2, 8: PL 176, 642: cf. ibid. 2, 9: PL 176, 642-643).
What in particular are you referring to? You have to understand who was the audience of each Gospel and letter. Though each Gospel writer shares different details of certain events, each highlights a different aspect from the event. If you and I both witness the same event, you might describe it differently than I would. In fact, I know you would describe it differently than I would ; )
You also have to remember that the New Testament was written after Jesus and even after some of the Apostles had been killed. The Faith was passed on by word of mouth as well as by letter (Thessalonians 2:15).
Can you give me an example? Are you ethnically Jewish by any chance? The reason I ask is because this is not the first time you have brought up how some in the Catholic Church and now your claim is that the Bible speaks ill of Jewish people?
I will remind you that Jesus, Blessed Mary, and St. Joseph were all Jewish. The entire Old Testament is all about God’s covenant with the Jewish faithful.
I’m not following your logic. Throughout Salvation History, man has time & time again, rejected God and yet, God keeps giving His faithful second chances, as a loving Father does. You seem to think that in order for Christianity to be true, every single Christian must be sinless. Well, I’m sorry to disappoint you; that is not what Christianity is.
“God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.” — John 3:17
Save the world from what? Sin.
When the woman was caught in adultery, Jesus says to her after revealing the sins of those who were about to stone her to death, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.” (John 8:11)
Pope Francis and Jesuits in general read only the first part, illustrating God’s abundant mercy, but skip over the second part, where God calls her to conversion, when he says, “go, and sin no more.”
Jesus does not say that sin does not matter. He says your sin does matter AND I love you, even unto death.
This is why what Pope Francis and some of the Jesuit types say is not only dangerous, but confusing to faithful Catholics. They focus only on the mercy of God, but skip over the second part of what Jesus say, which is that sin matters. If the Church says that sin is no big deal, then why be Christian at all? If sin does not matter, then nothing matters and Jesus died in vein. If the Church believed as the world believes, then why not live as the world does?
I don’t know how many different ways I can say it, this—was—wrong for them to do this. Some Bishops are bad at managerial. Pope Francis is bad at managerial. We had a missionary Priest from Guatemala. His heart was helping the poor; not good at all when it came to the managerial aspects of being a Parish Priest. The Bible talks about how members of Christ’s body has different parts and functions (1 Corinthians 12:12-30). We all have different gifts and talents.
Not all Bishops were covering up the scandal. Some were just really bad at their job.
As I said, I think any Pastor who abuses his vocation should be removed from serving and if what he has done is criminal, he should be held accountable. As I mentioned, we have a former Priest who is currently in jail for buying drugs for two young men in their twenties, in exchange for sęxual favors.
Pope John Paul II once said, “The opposite of love is not [only] hate, but usery.”
I do not defend the evils committed by bad Priests, just as I do not defend the evils committed by bad school teachers, scout leaders, CEO’s, etc.
To me OMNIlogically, The logical and rational opposite of Love if fear and the opposite of fear is OMNIlogically Love. We fear not for both natures become again as One God, One Holy Spirit in Being, OMNIlogically. Mental love removes mental anger and mental hate, causing fear, now, OMNIlogically we know fear is gone forever through Both natures, spirit and life, becoming again, One God, One Holy Spirit.
This is partially true, Cade_One, because, OMNIligically there are Two Co-Redemptive Power through the Gods, One, Mary, the God of Mercy and Jesus the God of Justice from creation by the Father. Mary is God of Mercy at the Annunciation in the Immaculate Conception through the “Firstborn Christ of all Creation” opening the gates of Heaven, from the cross where the blood and water did flow for all, rebirth and salvation, literally born again and saved for all the confusion in the proper logic and rationale of the born again and saved Parable for Catholic comprehension, OMNIlogically, to me and for all in the New Eve, through the Powers as God of Transformation through the Christ from the Virgin Birth of the Immortal Christ in all mankind from immortality through the Immaculate Flesh from Mary through the New Eve from immortal and immaculate flesh. The Mercy is the resurrected mortal failed flesh of Adam and Eve into immortality through the New Eve, Mary and eternal life in the immortal flesh becomes from Mary, Queen of Heaven, preexisting through fulfilled logical intelligence logic, the God of Mercy, Mary. To me Mary is the "First Christ when the Mind of God become to Mary’s soul when Mary says in 0 A.D. “Let not my will but Your Will be done to me.” The Mind of God in the Holy Spirit Family of God becomes to Mary’s Flesh becoming immaculately immortal as a Christ, as in all mankind as Christ’s, through Holy Spirit incorruptibility, becoming again for all, OMNIlogically, to me. The First Christ on Earth OMNIlogically is Mary, The Mother Of God, through Her Son and God, Jesus. To me logically and rationally, OMNIlogically the mercy in transformation into immortality for all is from the God of Transformation and God of Mercy, Mary.
To truly logically and rationally understand the Christ OMNIlogically The Christ is conceived in the entire Holy Spirit, the Complete Family of God is conceived through the flesh of Jesus becoming the Christ, the New Eve in all mankind becoming again, glorified and transfigured becoming again One Holy Spirit Family and One God in Being, for all. And this only logically and rationally places Mary in the Triniy as God of Mercy, God of Transformation, because Mary is God from preexistance through fulfilled intelligence logic existing before creation was ever created was even created as Mother of God in the unconfirmed, yet sanctified Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Conception and Our Sister to all mankind in the immortal flesh through the Virgin birth of the Christ, OMNIlogocally. Mary is logically, God because she has already told Bernadette, “I Am” “The Immaculate Conception” logically existing in creation before creation was ever created was even created, stating what Mary’s Son, Jesus has already said, before creation, “Before Abraham, “I am”, already, OMNIlogically, “God” through the Immaculate Conception.”
To rationally see the Holy Spirit we have to see The Holy Spirit, all mankind as all sons and daughters and all created and existing and preesxisting logical beings before creation all in One God, One Holy Spirit all persons existing and preexisting, as One God, in being, together, One Holy Spirit Family.
To me OMNIolgically, what is stained is both natures, spirit and life. What is created is sin nature from the Father from failed spirit through mortal flesh, becomming first immortal through the immaculate flesh in the New Eve. For all in confusion about logical born again and saved, in all rationality and logical truth, all mankind right here, at Baptism into the Church becoming into immortality and literally, logically and physically changed, born again into immortality from the failed mortal flesh from Adam and Eve, literally, OMNIlogically, reborn, immortally, for all in teh Christ becoming again One God and One Holy Spirit Family, together. The God of Mercy in Mary, OMNIlogically God Transformation first becoming immortality in all mankind in the New Eve and becoming again from The New Adam, God of Justice for all becoming again incorruptible from the Confirmed and re-Sanctified, and through Jesus, The God of Justice and God of Glorified transfiguration physiologically, rationally and divinely for sure infallibly for all becoming again glorified and transfigured becoming One Holy Spirit through the Immortal flesh in the New Eve becoming again One Holy Spirit Family and One God in being. What the World Order fails to realize is He came to unite all as One in Being, both natures, created by The Father, becoming transformed through the God of Mercy, Mary becoming again, glorified and transfigured as One God and One Holy Spirit Family One God in being from the God of Justice, Jesus, becoming again for all mankind One Holy Spirit Family by removing the contention in spirit and life through fulfilling both spirit and life glorified and transfigured and united together from the Father though the Mother for the Son, all mankind, in two natures united together through One Body, for One Holy Spirit Family and One God in Being, OMNIlogically, God.
From all of the logical formulas of the Wondrous Mysteries of the Catholic Faith and fully verified, spirit and life, both natures, Through the Faith of Abraham salvation in both natures is nothing new, only OMNIlogically now we see God becoming again in The One Holy Spirit Family, One God in being through the
It seems as though the RCC gets a “pass” on one of the greatest scandals in human history (ie centuries-long global sexual abuse and the equally long cover-up) for the most part.
No other entity, organization, etc would likely weather such a storm if there was the same amount of longstanding and widespread criminality against children.
It is complicated. The majority of the Priest scandals were done towards Postpubescent males. This implies that these evil Priests were homosęxual. This does not make it okay!
I listen to a lot of true-crime podcasts and one that I listened to recently was about a high school band teacher who was abusing young girls. And he too was shifted around from government school to government school. This went on for at least a decade and there are countless victims. The laws in Canada (where this happened) are kind of weird. Had this man done this to young males, then he would have been prosecuted, but because they were young females, he got off on a technicality.
As I believe I stated above, one of our former Priests is sitting in prison right now for the evil that he has done. So to say that rarely are these men held accountable for their actions is not entirely true.
There was a Cardinal, recently, who was falsely accused of abusing two boys who had made up the claim. He spent 404 days in solitary confinement for something he did not do!
Should the RCC get a pass? These individual Priests who committed crimes should not get a pass. Blame the entire RCC? No. Not unless we are going to blame all government schools as an institution for the actions of bad teachers. I am all for getting rid of government schools, but this will not solve the problem of pęrvs committing evil, anymore than crushing the RCC for the actions of individuals would do the same.
Your response conflates the specific example you give about a sexual predator teacher with the RCC’s actions/inactions regarding centuries-long mark of sexual predation.
The fundamental difference is that the RCC sexual abuse issue was known by the top all the way down as a matter of course and, rather than being a small number of isolated incidences, was a global religious organization rife with sex abuse for centuries.
I would venture to guess that like yourself and my own experience, most Catholics know or know of a sexual predator priest in their own diocese who was guilty of such heinous crimes rather than it being a very small number. I understand in your example that the school system was apparently complicit in shifting the teacher around rather than people blaming an entirely innocent institution, but I don’t believe the level of sex abuse in school systems in general and worldwide is anywhere near as knowingly covert and widespread as the RCC’s stances, procedures and cover-up of the sex abuse if children/teens.
Based on the magnitude of the abuses, the RCC has not been nearly as apologetic and contrite as the level of crime, cover-up and duration warrants. Francis shows this based on his favorable stance toward McCarrick, etc.
As you are clearly aware, sexual behavior/abuse by priests has been going on for a long time. IIRC past versions of canon law have required bishops to investigate suspected sexual abuse --though of course they’ve ignored that.
And of course sexual abuse of anyone is a FELONY. I wonder how many of these suspected abusers have been turned over to civil authorities.
In 1990, the church hired monk-furned-psychologist A. W. Richard Sipe to investigate sexual behavior of priests. Sipe found that 50% of all priests were in sexual relationships with adults–half of those with men, half of those with women. Somehow, the church either permitted Sipe in advance to publish his findings, or encouraged it–obviously, thinking his findings would be very different from what they were. The church did not contest Sipe’s findings. And at least some clderical experts are pretty sure it’s still; going on.
Priests in long-term sexual relationships is probably to be expected. After all, these men enter seminary when their sexual drive is strong. And research done some years ago found that a majority of men entering seminary were sexually immature and sexually ignorant–that is, they have not figured out how to deal with their sexual drive.
And for decades before the famous 2002 Boston Globe exposé of priestly sexual abuse, the church was busy covering up these scandals.
Here are the first 5 paragraphs of a 08/14/2018 NYTimes story about a Pennsylvania Grand jury finding that the church had a “playbook for concealing the truth” about priests sexually abusing people:
Avoid scandal. Use euphemisms. Ask inadequate questions. Lock complaints away in a “secret archive.” Above all, don’t tell the police.
Those are some of the tactics that leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania used to conceal child sexual abuse by priests over a period of 70 years, according to a grand jury report released Tuesday.
“It’s like a playbook for concealing the truth,” said the grand jury, whose investigation identified more than 1,000 sexual abuse victims in six Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania.
Special agents from the F.B.I.’s National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime reviewed evidence collected by the grand jury, the report says, and identified a series of practices that were regularly used by the six dioceses to cover up reports of abuse.
“While each church district had its idiosyncrasies, the pattern was pretty much the same,” the report says. “The main thing was not to help children, but to avoid ‘scandal.’ That is not our word, but theirs; it appears over and over again in the documents we recovered.”
And although it probably occurs less today, it’s probably still going on.
Somehow, a majority of other Christian denominations have found ways for individuals to serve god while being married. So it’s curious that the RCC has not found such a way.
You bring up very salient points, @MrCurious. Clergy are bound by their vow (oath) and expected by society to be trustworthy, honest and safe for those seeking help from them. There are other vocations/professions that are bound by oaths in which society counts on and expects them to be trustworthy, honest and safe for those seeking help from them: Physicians and Mental Health Practitioners come to mind. What if 50% of all doctors and of all therapists were in sexual relationships with their patients? How would those professions be regarded by the public? Would they have anything more than a modicum of respect and legitimacy? Should they?
I’ve come to realize in these years post-scandal, that as Catholics, it’s difficult to see the situation objectively as to the true gravity, the true damage to the world; literally singular in its scope.
Rather than a seeming lack of contrition from the Vatican relatively speaking, what if there would have been the creation of a new religious order, including a 3rd order that has the purpose of continual prayer for the atonement of the church, and the healing of the victims of the sexual abuse? Worldwide perpetual prayer for forgiveness of The Church. The Order could last as long is it’s reasonably estimated the abuse likely started. Centuries?
I love this response, because it tells us a lot about you–and I think, reveals some things about the church which are helping to diminish its power in civil political life.
For starters, it shows how ignorant you are about this matter of priests abusing minors (and occasionally adults who don’t know any better). By promoting your nonsense, hyou are actualoly setting the environment for MORE abuse to occur. And at the same time, encouraging people to leave the church.
And your interest in this matter tells us something about your apparent obsession with homosexuality. Hmm…
OK< so call me a liar for responding to one of your messages when I said I was through with you.
I am a decades-long agnostic, skeptic, and observer okf behavior.
The church has had a bunch of recent scandals and experiences that seem to me to have at least one thing in common.
Widespread emotional and physical of parochial school students; the Magdalene Laundries scandal in Ireland; sexual abuse and protection of abusers; the Edgar Mortaro matter in France in the 19th century; the “Christian Brothers” scandals in which natrive Canadians were abused; and on and on.
Seems to me these have at least three things in common:
(1) they are about power and abuse of those with less power.
(2) they seem to me to very clearly violate the very clear teachings of Jesus regarding behavior towards others.
(3) they were widely known to others, who all maintained their silence!
One bottom line to this, I think: the church preaches a good line, but is only held to it when the bad stuff becomes widely known–thanks to some of the sheeple,. and NEVER to others who should be reporting these things, i.e. clerics.
Another thing about the church I find extremely interesting:
Many (many many!) years ago, I was taught that the church teaches “no salvation outside the church”–IOW, forget about those other Christian denominations, which teach very largely the same thing the Roman church teaches…
Since I knew little about behavior, I never thought about that. SHRUG–just another principle.
But then, some years ago, I thought about it, and the reason for that teaching became obvious: if church members discover that other Christian churches teach essentially the same thing, but are somehow in practice more accepting and loving of members, etc etc, there’s a risk those individuals might abandon the RCC–which of course would diminish its power!
JESUS WEPT: Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church, by Philip Shenon
A review of this book appears in today’s NY Times. Might be available in other newspapers as well. The book looks to me like it’s very relevant to what we’ve been discussing.
I was illustrating how it is not just a RCC problem; and that it is not because the victims tend to be males, as in other cases it is the opposite.
And my point was that the same is true of government schools all over the world. And though you and many make the claim that everyone knew this was going on, I do not know that this is true. Some did.
I said as such. I know of one Priest who is in jail right now who committed homosęxual acts with two men in their twenties for exchange for drugs, but these two men were students while he was a Priest, but did not cross the line until they were of age (I’m sure there was grooming involved). He deserves to be in jail. No argument from me. The dude is sick. I know at least five government school teachers within the last few years who have done things with students; only one is still in jail and she is attracted to girls. Two others are awaiting trial, as theirs happened recently. Granted there are more teachers than Priest, so the number would be expected to be higher within the institution of government schools.
We are not disagreeing what should be done to these individuals who abuse their status of authority for selfish desires. I just have a hard time of blanket-blaming everyone in the institution as being responsible. Are there administrators who knew what was going on and turned a blind eye, perhaps. They should expect to be removed from their role. Are there administrators who may have not know, or not understood the full-scope of what was going on, I do believe this is the case in many of these scandals.
I know I would not make a good administrator. I want to believe that people are genuinely good, though I know in reality this is not the case. One of my pet-peeves is being falsely accused of something I did not do. So I would not want to do this to someone else. What I am saying is, do not hire me as an administrator
Sounds like @Pax and @MrCurious would make great administrators
A few quick observations. I’m sure the NY Times gave a raving review (as Shenon was a longtime New York Times reporter). He is also described as an agnostic.
