To my brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. May Gods grace and peace be with you and your loved ones.
A few months ago the Catholic church under Pope Leo released a document. It said that calling Mary a co redeemer and co mediator was causing confusion among Catholics. It said that only Jesus holds those titles of redeemer and mediator.
Any thoughts on that?
There is one meditator between God and men: Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).
Christ gave himself for us (redeemed us)—there are many Bible verses about this, such as Hebrews 9:12.
My understanding: We can help in Christ’s work, but we are adding to it. None of us can redeem anybody. Even when priests act as mediators—in confession, for example—they are using the authority that Christ gave them. They could not forgive sins without Him. Merriam Webster’s first definition for the prefix co is “together” (plus a few synonyms); the second meaning, and a very common usage, is “to the same degree” (equally). Could anybody besides Christ be co-mediator or co-redeemer? Maybe in the sense of working together with Him but in an auxiliary role. Not in the second sense of being equal. Mary can be seen as a helper (as we all could) in the work of redemption but not equally our redeemer. These titles that the pope said could cause confusion do not indicate that Mary can be considered only an auxiliary; rather, they could just as well mean “equal,” which she is not.
What will happen by saying it like this is that those who already misunderstand the teaching of these will say that the Church has changed her teaching, when she has not.
Protestants misunderstand what we mean and the theology behind Mary being co-redemptrix. It comes from the Early Church Fathers who pointed out that Mary is the “New Eve” (see Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Cyprian, and St. Ambrose, who all described Mary as the New Eve).
Essentially it is this, Where Adam (and Eve), by their disobedience to God, brought sin and death into our world, Jesus (and Mary), by their obedience to God, brought reconciliation and life into our world.
The prefix co, does not mean equal to. Eve played a part in Adam’s sin, but Adam is responsible for the fall. Mary played a part in the redemption of the world, but Jesus is responsible for rising and conquering death.
Jesus is divine and Mary is not divine.
Another way that Mary is the New Eve is that when God made Eve, she was called a “helper” (Genesis 2:18) and Mary refers to herself as the handmaid, or “helper”, of the Lord (Luke 1:38).
Lastly, when you read Genesis 3:15, it says God would put enmity between the woman and the serpent and between her Son and the serpent’s offspring. Mary is often called “woman” in the New Testament. Not as a derogatory term, but rather a callback to this promise.
Many Protestants (not so much the so-called Reformers) put enmity between Mary and Jesus. Mary is on Team Jesus. If you are not on Team that Mary is on, then you must be on Team Serpent. Don’t be on Team Serpent and don’t put Mary as the Team Captain. Jesus is our Team Captain. I hope this makes sense.
As far as co-mediator goes, I want to parrot what @Literalman said, there is one meditator between God and man: Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). However, this verse is referring to salvation and less about Prayer.
We believe in the Communion of Saints. And we believe that those who die in this life, but are alive in Christ are not separated from the body. In fact, we believe they are more alive than Christians are here on Earth. And we ask for their Prayers. Mary, the Theotokos, “Mother of God,” we ask for her Prayers.
At the foot of the Cross, Jesus looked at His beloved and then to His Mother, and said, “Woman, behold your Son” and to His disciple, “Behold your Mother” (John 19:26-27). In a spiritual sense, Mary became our blessed Mother.
Also, Christ is King! And Mary, as His Mother is Queen. And we see in the Old Testament that Queens played a special role in the Kingdom. They held a place of honor. And thus, we honor Mary.
Another contributing factor in all of this is that some Bible translations refer to “the woman” in Genesis and in Revelation as being the one who crushes the head of the serpent/dragon, while other translations refer to “the seed of the woman” (Jesus) as being the one who crushes the head of the serpent/dragon. This is why many statues of Mary depict her crushing a snake under he foot.
The reality is that Mary played a part (she is a handmaid of the Lord). She is the “New Eve.” And her seed (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 20:2), Jesus, did/does/will conquer the the serpent/dragon. Thanks be to God! ♱
Again, I hope this makes sense.
Have a good night : )
There is the matter of papal infallibility.
The Pope is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit when officially defining doctrines on faith or morals.
That’s a Catholic dogma that is supposed to be adhered to so that divisons don’t occur within the RCC
Mary IS co-redeemer, mediatrix (co mediator). Saying she isn’t is satanic. She herself declared this, as did many popes, bishops, and every sort of clergy before this new pope. Jesus IS redeemer and mediator, and the only one at that, the key word is CO. Mary isn’t redeemer or mediator she is CO redeemer and CO mediator. No catholic is confused by this except apparently the new pope.
I looked in four dictionaries, and two of them specifically indicated that one meaning of the prefix co- is “equal to” or “to the same degree.”
Some examples:
A co-worker is a fellow worker. The word doesn’t imply that the person is less important, less responsible, or less skilled than the other workers, even though the person might be; it does imply equal status.
A cosponsor (of a law, for example) is a joint sponsor; it might be someone adding a signature to someone else’s statement, or it could be one of two or a handful who are equally originating a proposal.
A copliot is an assistant pilot but has full responsibility for the safety of the aircraft and has the skills to take over if necessary.
A co-signer assumes complete responsibility for a debt and is fully capable of paying it if the main debtor defaults.
Jesus paid the debt for our sins, but Mary was not capable of paying it.
These co- titles given to Mary don’t come with asterisks and footnotes to say that she isn’t a mediator like Jesus and did not pay the price for our sins. So I would say that the titles are open to confusion if the Church doesn’t mean that Mary is an equal mediator and redeemer.
By the way, you said you would parrot me, Cade, and just this week I was reflecting that AI seems to be an artificial parrot rather than artificial intelligence. I’m not saying that you are really AI. Awk! Want a cracker?
Catholics are called to follow the teachings of the RCC and not invent their own doctrines like other denominations do.
I am pleased that the Pope has cleared things up because I was totally confused. As he said Mary is not a co redeemer nor is she a co mediator. Those titles are only held by our Lord Jesus Christ who was sent by God to spill His blood and suffer the pain of the crucifixion for our salvation. Only Christ can redeem us. Only Christ is our mediatior. I don’t have to pray to Mary for any kind of intercession.
According to the RCC people who refuse to follow the teachings of the RCC are not Catholics at all. The Pope’s word is infallible. Mary co redeemer and co mediator is not a Catholic teaching but a false teaching not guided by the Holy Spirit but guided by the evil one trying to take the focus off of our Lord saviour Jesus Christ. I’m sorry if people don’t like it but that is the truth.
This religion is confusing to me. Why is it that you have people in your own religion that can’t agree on what’s true? I’m not saying this to push buttons, I’m legitimately asking, because it’s like being Catholic is like this spectrum. We had one woman on here who is pro-choice and supports the LGBTQ+ community, and she identifies as a Catholic. We have another person on here who hated Pope John Paul II who also identifies as Catholic. And now we have people who truly believe that Mary is co-redeemer and co-mediator, and others like yourself who doesn’t believe in that. Don’t you guys know what you believe and what you don’t? Cause having people in your own religion disagree on fundamental issues is wild to me.
[quote=“EarthsStudent, post:13, topic:3086, full:true”]
This religion is confusing to me. Why is it that you have people in your own religion that can’t agree on what’s true? I’m not saying this to push buttons, I’m legitimately asking, because it’s like being Catholic is like this spectrum. We had one woman on here who is pro-choice and supports the LGBTQ+ community, and she identifies as a Catholic. We have another person on here who hated Pope John Paul II who also identifies as Catholic. And now we have people who truly believe that Mary is co-redeemer and co-mediator, and others like yourself who doesn’t believe in that. Don’t you guys know what you believe and what you don’t? Cause having people in your own religion disagree on fundamental issues is wild to me.
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I understand your concern. The main thing about being a Catholic is that we must follow the teachings of the RCC. Their doctrines and teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit, otherwise it causes division when people decide to follow other paths. People that refuse to follow the teachings of the RCC aren’t really Catholics at all despite claiming to be.
It’s all about faith in the RCC, not going your own way and against the RCC like many unfortunately do
May Gods peace be with you
I left the Church cause intellectually it was causing all sorts of chaos for me. But, I agree, if you’re going to subscribe to a certain religion, to me it would only make sense you would try to do what that religion tells you to do. The problem is, not everyone (at least not freely) subscribes to religion. Some people are born into households that force their children to attend mass, and the thing of it is, the parents who do this kind of thing only have the best of intentions. But, you can have the best of intentions but the result of those intentions can be bad.
I think I was one of those kids who, at my core, didn’t really believe in everything the Church taught. I was forced to go, cause if I spoke ill against the Church or if I ever told my parent I didn’t want to go to Church, it would just cause arguments to break out. And, here’s the thing, I tried to do the right thing, I really did. When I was growing up, I tried my best to do what God and the Church wanted me to do. But, I always had these little doubts pop up in my mind, but I was always quiet about it, because I was under the impression that maybe that was Satan trying to get me to leave or to not want anything to do with the Church anymore.
Part of the reason why I think parents bring their children to Mass is partially because they might feel like Spiritually that’s something they should do. That when they die, they’re somehow responsible for their children’s souls, so they bring them to Mass. But I think the other reason they do it is because, it’s just a good thing to instill morals and values into kids as they grow up.
However, if I ever had a child, I’d let the child decide. Yes children don’t have a fully developed will or brain, so they’re trying to make sense of the world around them yet, but to me it’s about respect for the child. Now, would I not try to instill morals and values into my own children? No, I would most definitely try to instill at least a good foundation. But, I would mostly parent my child by asking them what it is they want to do. My only job as a parent is to teach my child the difference between right and wrong. Anything else is really up to my child and not up to me as a parent. As a parent I’m supposed to be a parent and teach my children that this is right and this is wrong, and as a parent I would support anything it is my child wanted to do (granted it’s within reason). I think that forcing a child to go to Church at an early age isn’t really respecting the child’s Free Will. Yes, their Will isn’t fully developed, but that’s where I come in and teach them what to do and what not to do. And I would support them every step of the way. If my child wanted to go to Church because they truly want to go, I would support that. And if my child didn’t want to go to Mass, that’s ok too.
Children are our future. And we want our children to be happy, and live happy and fulfilling lives, but I think you’re doing a disservice to your child when you force your child to do something they really don’t want to do. It’s a form of slavery, and our children are already going to have to deal with a lot as the years go by, it’s best to make your child’s life as painless as possible.
If someone’s heart really isn’t into something, they’re not going to give it their all. In fact, most people when they don’t like something tend to not give 110% to whatever it is they hate. There’s just no passion there. I wish I was never born into Catholicism, because it has only complicated things for me and not made things better, granted my loss of faith is a bit more complicated than just that. But, now that I’ve decided to search for the truth myself, my family has basically mentally checked out on me. If anything, my family tolerates me, but it just comes to show you that, this life we live in is indeed an illusion. If a family truly loved their other family members, leaving the Church wouldn’t be grounds for treating that family member any different from other family members. This life is an illusion, we live in a simulation, and the only way anyone is going to get out of this prison is through knowledge, because something I have learned is that the love that I was born with was manufactured….it wasn’t real love, it was more about security than it ever was about love. Cause now that I’ve decided to truly question things and not just believe anything on the surface, I am treated as a stranger in my family. I’m treated as if I don’t belong, and ever since I’ve been trying to find the truth, I never belonged. This family I was born into is not my real family. I am not this body, this mind, I’m none of this. Jake is just a character I play in this 3rd Dimensional Reality, because my real home is on a different planet, and my real name is not Jake or Jacob. It’s not ignorance, it is the truth, and the truth is uglier than anything Catholicism has come up with. It’s way deeper and way uglier than what Catholicism teaches. Catholicism is like an after school special compared to the truth I’ve found.
It makes me sad to read that you don’t have a good relationship with your parents. I didn’t either for a while, I was like a black sheep, my parents brought me up as a Catholic and I respect them for that. I don’t think that letting a child decide is a good idea nor leaving them at home by themselves when you go to church.
But I turned away from God and believed the scientific theory of evolution. But then I found that the theory was severely flawed and founded on hoaxes. I found Satan basically leading me astray and so I started on my path back to God.
I don’t claim to know everything, in fact there is much that I don’t understand and I don’t think anyone on this earth will ever understand everything.
I wish you the best on your journey towards the light of God, that you are guided by the Holy Spirit and i pray that Gods grace and peace be with
I’m sorry my friend, I’m not sure what you mean by “omnilogically”, but what your saying goes against the teaching of the RCC.
There is a big split among so called Catholics now. Some have become Marion cultists. They believe that Mary is equal to God and/or that Mary can save our souls. This directly contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church, it has never taught this, it clearly says that God is above all and that only Jesus can save our souls.
I pray that you find truth through the teachings of the RCC. God bless
Amen! What the title is referring to, however, is Mary’s role in redemption. Just as Eve played a role in the fall, Mary also played a role in our redemption. Jesus did not spawn to earth as a grown, nąked man like Arnold Schwarzenegger in “The Terminator.”
Correct, you don’t have to Pray to Mary for her intercession, nor the Saints, nor have to ask others to Pray for you. You can Pray only to Jesus, whom they would also be Praying to.
The word Pray means “to ask.” St. Paul asked other Christians in his letters to Pray for him. If mediator means only Pray to Jesus (which is a Protestant interpretation of the text), then the Apostle Paul was in the wrong by asking others to Pray for him and to Pray for rulers and our enemies. He would be asking you to “mediate” (if that is what is meant by 1 Timothy 2:5, which it is not).
It is not wrong to ask others to Pray for us. In fact, I would say that it is good to ask others to unite with us in Prayer, as we are all members of Christ’s body.
Mediation in 1 Timothy 2:5 is referring to Salvation, not to Prayer. Read verse 4. Also read 1 Corinthians 8:6, Hebrews 8:6, 9:15, 12:24, and Romans 5:15. These are all referring to Jesus as mediator (again, having to do with salvation).
Another problem is that in modern times, many associate Prayer as worship. We do worship God in Prayer. When we ask one another, Mary, our Guardian Angel, the Saints, etc. to Pray for us, we are not worshiping them.
Another problem is that our Protestant brothers & sisters only see in this vs. that terms. They assume (wrongly) that because we Pray to others in Christ Jesus, that we therefore do not Pray to Jesus. Of course we Pray to Jesus, more than anyone else.
That would be like me asking someone if they ate lunch today and they say yes, and them I assume that they did not therefore eat breakfast or that they will not be eating supper.
The Pope should clarify these terms that the Church has used throughout History, but not reject them simply because many Protestants (and some Catholic Christians as yourself) have misunderstood them.
Have some taken their honoring of Mary to an extreme level? Yes. Have others overcompensated by almost demonetizing our Blessed Mother? Yes!
When Jesus said to hate your mother, father, brother, and sister, He did not mean literally (Luke 14:26). He was saying that if you see these as more important than to God, then you cannot be Jesus’ disciple. He was not saying that these are therefore evil. In fact, Jesus tells us in 1 John 4:20-21 that if you hate a brother or sister, then you do not really love God. Don’t hate Mary and don’t love Mary more than God. It’s really not that hard. And if you love Mary, it doesn’t mean that you don’t love Jesus. Protestants need to stop with the nonsense and really the Pope should call them out on their nonsense rather than appeasing them.
Okay, I’ll give you that in some cases it does mean “equal to,” however that is not what we mean by this. So, rather than say that we don’t believe in these terms, which we do, define what we mean by these terms.
If you say that your name is John and “John” sometimes means toilet, it doesn’t mean that you need to change your name. Just correct people on what is meant by your name. You are not a toilet and neither is Mary.
A lot of people get the “Immaculate Conception” mistaken for Jesus being conceived of The Ever Virgin, but we do not change the term, simply because some misunderstand what we mean by it.
Your actually calling Satanic the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church… WOW… 
Then you said that Mary declared this.
When and where did she ever declare this? Never in the bible, she only says a few words in the bible and never asked for any kind of glory. Also not in any Marion apparitions that are approved by the RCC did she ever make that declaration either.
@CristoRei Though I would not say it is satanic to not believe Mary is Co-Redemptrix, I think some have a misunderstanding of what we mean by this term.
So, let me ask you a few questions to better understand what you believe.
And if anyone else in this conversation wants to answer these same questions, please do. Because I feel like some are talking past one another or making accusations about others that may not even be their position.
I’m sorry but the RCC does not teach that and never has. The trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is the three entities of the Trinity. There are no other entities, not Mary or anyone else. To add more entities to the Trinity would be heretical
That was my point about how these titles are disseminated without explanation (no asterisks, no footnotes—which I wouldn’t expect), so how is anybody to know just from hearing or reading the titles what they do mean and that Mary is not equal to Jesus?
And where does the Church teach that Mary is co-redeemer and co-mediator? I did not find anything like this in the 255 dogmas of the Catholic Church, so I suppose that these roles are not a required belief. The Catholic Catechism calls Mary a Mediatrix with a capital M but also says that Jesus is “the only mediator” and “the one and only mediator.” I didn’t find anything in the Catechism about Mary being any kind of redeemer.
So please tell us where the Catholic Church teaches that Mary has these roles. Maybe they are in the Catechism and I just did not find them. Thank you.
So far on this forum I’ve heard people say that Mary is a God, that she is part of the Trinity and that she pre-exists God. Elsewhere I’ve heard people say that there is no salvation without Mary. I’ve also been slandered on here being called a blasphemer and worse of all I was called a Satanist. I love God and I despise the evil one so I’m sad about that as I am following the teachings of the RCC 
I don’t feel like adding anymore apart from reiterating the facts that i already stated but seeing you’ve been kind and reasonable I will answer your questions.
1- The term co-redemptrix assumes that Mary can redeem our souls and the term co-mediatrix assumes that she can be a mediator between God. Neither titles belong to any dogma and the latest document released by the RCC has rejected these titles saying that they only belong to Jesus
2- I don’t know if the Bishops of Rome have used these terms but as I already said they were never part of any dogmas and have now been rejected
3- I’m not familiar with this term the “new Eve” it’s not what I’m referring to and I know it’s not a dogma either
4- Mary herself takes nothing away from Jesus but all these kind of titles do. Praying the rosary certainly does as one prays 10 times to Mary before praying only once to the Lord.
In conclusion I want to reiterate the facts that I’m conveying
Fact 1- Mary has four dogmas but neither co-redemptrix nor co-mediatrix has ever been part of any dogma of the RCC
Fact 2- The RCC under Pope Leo released a document rejecting these titles saying that those titles only belong to Jesus
These are the facts. Marianists can believe what they like but unfortunately these beliefs are not in line with the teachings of the RCC.
God bless
Your the one delivering fake news, nonsense that goes against the teaching of the RCC.
What is this omnilogic that you speak of? I tried looking it up and found it was nothing but a computer software program. Maybe your the AI trying to deceive people with your false doctrines.
I’m delivering the facts.
Fact 1- Mary has four dogmas but neither co-redemptrix nor co-mediatrix has ever been part of any dogma of the RCC
Fact 2- The RCC under Pope Leo released a document rejecting these titles saying that those titles only belong to Jesus