Do you believe in the things taught by the one, holy, katholik, and apostolic church?
Is he now Catholic or still a “just me and my Bible” guy? Just curious.
The problem with making the exception the rule is that it disregards what Jesus Himself said. “Amen, Amen, I say to you…” Jesus tells us that more is required of us than simply believing in Jesus. And He showed us how we receive His grace.
Jesus did not need to be Baptized; He had no sin. He did not need to partake in the Last Super; He is the Sacrifice. But, He did these to institute these amazing gifts.
The difference between Catholic Christians and many Protestant Christians is that we believe Christ is actually working in us when we are Baptized. It is not simply just an outward sign of our faith, but rather that He is doing something real in us. Likewise with the Holy Eucharist. We believe that when we receive Him in the most Blessed Sacrament that we (as Jesus said) are receiving “life” and the Eucharist (as He said) is “true food” and “true drink.” Not a mere symbol.
I read a great article about this yesterday titled, “Evidence Christ Offered the Last Supper as a Sacrifice” by Karlo Broussard.
A Christian who does not believe in Baptism is like someone who does not believe in Marriage. Sure, he can fantasize that he is in a relationship with the one he loves, and even be in a relationship with this person, but there is no Covenant nor real commitment between them. A Covenant is more than a fantasy or infatuation. It is real. It is true. And it is life-giving, sacrificial love.
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Exactly. Or else it is the Protestant mindset
Do I believe, etc.? Yes.
Is the Arizona Bible Guy Catholic? No. He has a good knowledge of the Bible, better than many Catholics, and he is a friend, so I asked him the question posed above: Is belief in the Trinity required for salvation? It seems to me that the answer is no. If anybody has evidence that it is, go ahead and state it.
ST, II-II, Q. 2, A. 8: “I answer that, It is impossible to believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ, without faith in the Trinity, since the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh; that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Ghost; and again, that He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Wherefore just as, before Christ, the mystery of Christ was believed explicitly by the learned, but implicitly and under a veil, so to speak, by the simple, so too was it with the mystery of the Trinity. And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity: and all who are born again in Christ, have this bestowed on them by the invocation of the Trinity, according to Matthew 28:19: "Going therefore teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”
Florence, Sess. 8: “ Sixthly, we offer to the envoys that compendious rule of the faith composed by most blessed Athanasius, which is as follows: Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally. The catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the holy Spirit is one, the glory equal, and the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the holy Spirit. The Father uncreated the Son uncreated and the holy Spirit uncreated. The Father infinite, the Son infinite and the holy Spirit infinite. The Father eternal, the Son eternal and the holy Spirit eternal. Yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also they are not three uncreateds nor three infinites, but one uncreated and one infinite. Likewise the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty and the holy Spirit is almighty. Yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. Likewise the Father is God, the Son is God and the holy Spirit is God. Yet they are not three gods, but one God. Likewise the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord and the holy Spirit is Lord. Yet they are not three lords, but one Lord. For just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each person by himself to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the catholic religion to say there are three gods or three lords. The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is from the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son; not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. And in this Trinity nothing is before or after, nothing is greater or less; but the whole three persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as has been said above, the unity in Trinity and the Trinity in unity is to be worshipped. Whoever, therefore, wishes to be saved, let him think thus of the Trinity.
It is also necessary for salvation to believe faithfully the incarnation of our lord Jesus Christ. The right faith, therefore, is that we believe and confess that our lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, is God and man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the ages; and man, of the substance of his mother, born in the world. Perfect God, perfect man, subsisting of a rational soul and human flesh. Equal to the Father according to his Godhead, less than the Father according to his humanity. Although he is God and man, he is not two, but one Christ. One, however, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the taking of humanity into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as a reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ. He suffered for our salvation and descended into hell. On the third day he rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. Thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good shall go into eternal life, but those who have done evil shall go into eternal fire. This is the catholic faith. Unless a person believes it faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. Seventhly, the decree of union concluded with the Greeks, which was promulgated earlier in this sacred ecumenical council of Florence and which is as follows: Let the heavens be glad . . . “
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The word Ecclesia/Ekklesia (Latin/Greek) does not mean “congregation”. The English word Church from the Anglo-Saxon Cirice, that from the Old High German Kirihha, and that from the Greek Kyriakon (“of the Lord”), likely in the sense of “Kyriakon Doma”, meaning “House of the Lord”. Ecclesia rather comes from the Greek Ekklesia meaning “called out”. The word used in the New Testament is the Greek.
Those walls of text may come in handy if I get a high tide of anything. Who or what is ST? ST says (cut to the chase) that if you believe in Jesus you have to believe in the Trinity, and that such belief is required for salvation. Right? I suppose that this is not Catholic dogma nor in the Bible. If so, it’s an opinion. So it’s evidence for the argument that belief in the Trinity is required for salvation. If the argument is correct, no belief, no heaven.
We know from the Gospel that the good thief is in heaven, so if ST is right, the good thief believed in the Trinity.
I imagine that everyone in heaven, seeing God as He is, acknowledges the Trinity. But that’s not belief. I think that belief for salvation means believing before you die.
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(1) ST is Summa Theologiae (by st Thomas)
(2) “And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the house of Israel 30- the Law and the Gospel were together inn force; 31 but on the gibbet of his death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees, 32 fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, 33 establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. 34 “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” 35” - Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, #29
Since the New Law was promulgated at the Death, this means that EXPLICIT FAITH in the Trinity was made absolutely necessary for salvation after that point. You must believe in the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as God for salvation. No exceptions.
Right, but merely believing is not enough. Catholics do not believe in faith alone. The Bible does not teach faith alone. I know that Protestants often will claim that if you don’t have works, then you really don’t believe. And I understand this, but belief is only a part of what the Bible instructs us to partake in. Jesus invites us to a deeper relationship with Him.
In my analogy, you can say that you believe you are in a relationship with someone, and you can show it by buying flowers and going through her stuff to find out more about her, but merely believing you are in a relationship with someone is not the same thing as a Covenantal relationship with someone. It is stalking ; )
Too many Protestants (and sadly some Catholics) think that Catholics believe that we can be in Covenant, but do not need to have a relationship with the Holy Trinity. This is false. In order to trust (have faith) in someone, you usually need to have a relationship with them. Or maybe you are just a very trusting person, in which you could fall for false teaching more easily and be deceived by anything and anyone. Which is why being in a Covenant with someone who is trustworthy is important. And no one is more trustworthy than God.
How does one enter into Covenant? Simply believing that you are? Simply professing that you are? Or are there more formal ways that one enters into Covenant alongside believing and professing? You see, many Protestants treat everything as an either/or. Either you believe in God or you believe in works. We believe that relationships take work. Covenantal relationships take a sacrifice.
Becoming a member of the Church is this: professing the true faith and being baptised (Pius XII, Mys. Cor. #22,23). This is, in a sense, partaking in the New Testament, but not in its fullness. For, to do so in its fullness, one must do these things, but also love the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, and mind (Mt. xx. 37).
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This is politics. Desire to control people, and congregation. Christ says, 1)“Love the Lord with all of thy heart.” 2) “Accept the yoke that I bear.” This means one should have such an intimate heartfelt connection with Jesus, that one’s heart begins to feel love For God the Father, in the mood of Jesus the son. Anyone who can keep these two instructions is the topmost Catholic, whether a member or not. Others who undergo a membership ceremony, but whose hearts are still filled with material desires are simply materialists. The church will accept them, but Christ will say, “I never knew you.”
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