Vatican II's heretical ecclesiology

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Regarding the original post, the quotation from Vatican II does not deny that you can separate yourself from the Body of Christ. It only affirms that Baptism makes you a member of the Body of Christ.

Trying to make things as they were before A.D. 800 is not being traditional. That’s being antiquarian. Pope Pius XII had a few things to say about antiquarianism (see Mediator Dei 63-64)

This is simply wrong. Vatican II does not teach conciliarism. (N.B. I don’t think Boniface VIII’s “two heads” comments was about the college of bishops. But, as we shall see, that is beside the point.)

Reading paragraph 22 of Lumen Gentium you actually discover that:

  • The college of bishops has no authority apart from the Roman Pontiff
  • The pope has primacy over all the pastors of the Church who are subject to him
  • The college of bishops only exercises authority with the consent of the Roman Pontiff
  • For a council of bishops to be ecumenical it must be confirmed (or at least accepted) by the successor of Peter
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(1) I never said that they can’t be separated. I said the doctrine that one who is made a member via baptism alone is heretical.
(2) Explain how the bishops are not made a head if they are separate from the Roman pontiff. They are really distinct entities in this case. So I guess it would be like 1 1/2 head.

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Logically, the metaphor of “two swords” represents the spiritual and temporal powers, asserting that both are under the authority of the Church, with the spiritual sword wielded by the Church (the clergy) and the temporal sword wielded by kings and soldiers on behalf of the Church and at the will of the priest. The Pope’s Unam Sanctam was a declaration on the unity of the Catholic Church and the necessity of being subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation.

Peace to all,

And thanks in advance to CanadianPriest for helping bring to my attention the logical Fellowship of the Holy Spirit as perhaps more than just a person in the Catholic Trinity from Corinthians, To me I see the Trinity as The Holy Family and the Holy Spirit as three Gods in One Family in the preexisting Family of God together from the Father through the Mother for the Son becoming the Christ, the Conception of the Holy Family in Jesus becoming the Christ in all mankind and living inside of us becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, OMNILogically, I believe, in all generalizations.

2 Corinthians 13:14, a verse often used as a benediction, expresses a prayer for the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to be with all believers. It’s a powerful statement that encapsulates key aspects of the Christian faith and is frequently used as a closing blessing in Christian worship services.

I am thinking, We? (I) often ask," How does the Mind of God work?" And to me from finite disciplines, I always throw in the towel nerver fully knowing always asking? How can creation become statically unfailing unless creation becomes again through two natures statically unfailing yet dynamically pulsing loving only and loving with only the most love becoming fulfilled from His Passion in the New Eve through the New Adam, Jesus, from Holy Spirit incorruption becoming The Christ in all mankind through two natures, spirit and life in One Body becoming again in all One Holy Family One God in being? Where is Stephen Andrew? No, just kidding, silly Stephen, I mean, where is the solution for all to see as One in being? Logically? I believe?

Spiritual Nature Salvation was the only option from Animal Sacrifice saving only the spirits in the created souls of all awaiting safely in the Bosom of Abraham, logically through the Faith of Abraham awaiting resurrection life from the spirit through fuflillment in two natures through the Christ.

Reborn as Saved as Catholic for perhaps the “New Catholic Evangelization” through the Personal Relationships for Jesus through The Christ becoming in all mankind becoming again in all One Family again from where the Holy Family came, the “Gift.”

Logical rebirth and salvation is from two sacraments, From Baptism through Penance for Sacrifice in death fro resurrection through life from the Power of The Holy Spirit Family though the created souls in all for the created flesh to become again One Holy Family from Baptism through Penance forgiven for all becoming again in all One God in being in all generalizations, I am thinking, OMNILogically, maybe?

To me logical salvation rebirth and salvation is through two heads can be understood from the spirit nature through the created souls of all for the New Eve flesh becoming Baptized, transformed immortalized sanctified and through Holy Spirit incorruption in both natures One Body through the Immaculate Conception from the New Eve in Immaculate Flesh for all into the Catholic Church reborn in One Body becoming again saved for the New Adam through the Christ, from Sacrifice through Penance forgiven in our Two Nature Temple of Our own conceived Family of God becoming through the flesh from the Holy Spirit Family of God from three powers and personal Gods in being becoming in all alive from One Logical God Head Body, One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, to me, I believe, rationally and faithfully from the God through the Faith of Abraham becoming again in all through two natures, spirit and life.

Rationally , for all as One, We logically render to God and Caesar, therefore Caesar must also render to the same undefiled logical intelligence never failing in all cases following the pattern" What would Jesus do in all cases of the fulfilled faith and morality through the Christ becoming in all through two natures, spirit and life, from The Promise Land through the Temple, in One Body becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being," I believe.

We logically can see all mankind becoming brothers and sisters to all mankind through the Christ becoming sons and daughters of God becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, One God, perhaps prophet Muhammad is right, not completely understanding the logic? through Catholicism we all become again through both natures logically fulfilled from the spirit through the life in One God.

Render to Caesar, is the command, rationally. “Whose head is on the coin?” Uniting all as One in being from the spirit through the laws of the land temporaly, logically, to me, I believe. WE become as one in being lawfully from the Earthly powers of the one who sits on Moses seat as bound on earth as it is in heaven from the temporal nature becoming in all One God, to me, rationally, I believe.

And OMNILogically there is the second head, Caesar Rendering to the God Head becoming again in all from the second nature through the first nature becoming in all in both natures for One Body becoming again One Holy Spirit Family One God in being in all through two heads becoming One God Head, in all generalizations.

Peace always,
Stephen

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What does the “subject” there imply? That you must be a member of the catholic church, or that you must obey his teachings, or what?

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The Roman Pontiff exercises his jurisdiction only over those members of the church. Thus is means you must be a member of the church to be “subject” to him.

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“Conforming to the disgustingness and sins of the modern world.” Well, I guess that is your working definition.
Is belief in the Trinity required for salvation? Last night I had dinner with the Arizona Bible Guy (he used to be on TV under that title). Off the top of his head, he said, he could not think of any biblically required beliefs for salvation except faith in Jesus. If you know Jesus, he said, you will know the Father and know about the Holy Spirit. And I mentioned the good thief, somebody we know is in heaven. Someone mentioned him above too. Only his faith in Jesus is mentioned in the Gospel.

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Peace to all,

The Lost Sheep.

So true,to me,the Parable of the Good Thief, becomes to know the Christ as truely God and can forgive sins on earth after death and in Heaven through Family Powers for Divine Mercy in Purgatory, getting to know Teh Christ, transformed for resurrection becoming glorification and transfiguration, Baptized, becoming to know the Will of The Father through the Christ in Penance purged from sin from Sacrifice forgiven Confirmed, and now in Communion with His Family re-Sanctified becoming again in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.

To me The Trinity is the Family of God becoming inside of us and living becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, in all generalizations, I believe.

For all whom have not become to know The Christ, through no fault of their own and have not harmed their fellowman or maid servant will become to know through Divine Mercy. The Catholic Church states Purgatory “Exists”.

The phrase “and their future zeal” likely refers to a group of people and their anticipated enthusiasm or passion in the future, particularly in the context of a cause or objective. It suggests a belief in their continued devotion and energetic pursuit of a particular goal.

  • “Today bring to Me those who do not believe in God and those who do not yet know Me. I was thinking also of them during My bitter Passion, and their future zeal comforted My Heart. Immerse them in the ocean of My mercy”.

Peace always,
Stephen

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Do you believe in the things taught by the one, holy, katholik, and apostolic church?

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Is he now Catholic or still a “just me and my Bible” guy? Just curious.

The problem with making the exception the rule is that it disregards what Jesus Himself said. “Amen, Amen, I say to you…” Jesus tells us that more is required of us than simply believing in Jesus. And He showed us how we receive His grace.

Jesus did not need to be Baptized; He had no sin. He did not need to partake in the Last Super; He is the Sacrifice. But, He did these to institute these amazing gifts.

The difference between Catholic Christians and many Protestant Christians is that we believe Christ is actually working in us when we are Baptized. It is not simply just an outward sign of our faith, but rather that He is doing something real in us. Likewise with the Holy Eucharist. We believe that when we receive Him in the most Blessed Sacrament that we (as Jesus said) are receiving “life” and the Eucharist (as He said) is “true food” and “true drink.” Not a mere symbol.

I read a great article about this yesterday titled, “Evidence Christ Offered the Last Supper as a Sacrifice” by Karlo Broussard.

A Christian who does not believe in Baptism is like someone who does not believe in Marriage. Sure, he can fantasize that he is in a relationship with the one he loves, and even be in a relationship with this person, but there is no Covenant nor real commitment between them. A Covenant is more than a fantasy or infatuation. It is real. It is true. And it is life-giving, sacrificial love.

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Exactly. Or else it is the Protestant mindset

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Peace to all,

To me, Baptism logically allows transformed immortality through resurrection from the spirit through the living waters for the souls of all for the flesh to be able to become from death for resurrection life glorified and transfigured in One Body.

The full manifestation of God in man is from the Jordan River through the Baptism of John for the Christ to be able to become again in all glorified and transfigured. “Behold My Son in whom I am well pleased” is all sons and daughters of God, Baptized becoming the New Eve becoming from Sacrifice through Penance in the New Adam for Jesus becoming The Christ in all mankind. Virgin Born from the Immaculate Conception through Holy Spirit Incorruption in the Christ Jesus without Baptism would have remained on the Cross alive and never died of the flesh forever and Only through Baptism could Jesus become from death and resurrection glorified and transfigured in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, logically. And Jesus Baptized His Mother for Mary’s Glorious Assumption becoming again Glorified and Transfigured Queen of Heaven in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being to me , I believe.

To me in all generalizations, God sees all "Well pleasing, as Baptized, free of sin from Sacrifice forgiven through Penance from the Words of Absolution in Confession and in Communion with Him Confirmed and re-Sanctified all are now Just like Our Brother Jesus able to become again, “Well pleasing” and ready to become again glorified and transfigured in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, OMNILogically, to me, i believe.

Peace always,
Stephen

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Do I believe, etc.? Yes.

Is the Arizona Bible Guy Catholic? No. He has a good knowledge of the Bible, better than many Catholics, and he is a friend, so I asked him the question posed above: Is belief in the Trinity required for salvation? It seems to me that the answer is no. If anybody has evidence that it is, go ahead and state it.

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ST, II-II, Q. 2, A. 8: “I answer that, It is impossible to believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ, without faith in the Trinity, since the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh; that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Ghost; and again, that He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Wherefore just as, before Christ, the mystery of Christ was believed explicitly by the learned, but implicitly and under a veil, so to speak, by the simple, so too was it with the mystery of the Trinity. And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity: and all who are born again in Christ, have this bestowed on them by the invocation of the Trinity, according to Matthew 28:19: "Going therefore teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

Florence, Sess. 8: “ Sixthly, we offer to the envoys that compendious rule of the faith composed by most blessed Athanasius, which is as follows: Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally. The catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the holy Spirit is one, the glory equal, and the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the holy Spirit. The Father uncreated the Son uncreated and the holy Spirit uncreated. The Father infinite, the Son infinite and the holy Spirit infinite. The Father eternal, the Son eternal and the holy Spirit eternal. Yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also they are not three uncreateds nor three infinites, but one uncreated and one infinite. Likewise the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty and the holy Spirit is almighty. Yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. Likewise the Father is God, the Son is God and the holy Spirit is God. Yet they are not three gods, but one God. Likewise the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord and the holy Spirit is Lord. Yet they are not three lords, but one Lord. For just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each person by himself to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the catholic religion to say there are three gods or three lords. The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is from the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son; not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. And in this Trinity nothing is before or after, nothing is greater or less; but the whole three persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as has been said above, the unity in Trinity and the Trinity in unity is to be worshipped. Whoever, therefore, wishes to be saved, let him think thus of the Trinity.

It is also necessary for salvation to believe faithfully the incarnation of our lord Jesus Christ. The right faith, therefore, is that we believe and confess that our lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, is God and man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the ages; and man, of the substance of his mother, born in the world. Perfect God, perfect man, subsisting of a rational soul and human flesh. Equal to the Father according to his Godhead, less than the Father according to his humanity. Although he is God and man, he is not two, but one Christ. One, however, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the taking of humanity into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as a reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ. He suffered for our salvation and descended into hell. On the third day he rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. Thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good shall go into eternal life, but those who have done evil shall go into eternal fire. This is the catholic faith. Unless a person believes it faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. Seventhly, the decree of union concluded with the Greeks, which was promulgated earlier in this sacred ecumenical council of Florence and which is as follows: Let the heavens be glad . . . “

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Peace to all,

The roots of the word ecclesiology come from the Greek ἐκκλησία, ekklēsia (Latin: ecclesia) meaning "congregation, church " and -λογία, -logia, meaning “words”, “knowledge”, or “logic”, a combining term used in the names of sciences or bodies of knowledge.

The finite disciplines of earth have thrown in the towel through the limited knowledge of earth always asking never knowing, “How does God do it?”

OMNILogically we can now know “The Mind of God” I believe.

Arked to earth through the New Ark of the Covenant from The Eternal Priestly Authority, The Bread of Life through the New Covenant Law loving only and with only the most love becoming again from His Passion through The New Eve becoming in all One Family through the “Chosen” fulfilled faith and morality New Living Sacrifice in The Words, from “woman in the Word”, Lord Mary through The “Word becomes flesh” for Lord Jesus becoming the Christ in all through flesh and spirit in 0 A.D. Latin for the year of the Lord(s) Jesus and Mary and the beginning of Church time on earth, from two Gods for all created souls from the Father and also God of Creation together In One Holy Spirit Family One God in being becoming alive again in all One Family of God in being through two Natures, Spirit and life in One Body, I believe, OMNILogicalGod, in all generalizations.

“But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the holy Spirit is one, the glory equal, and the majesty co-eternal” is true by Faith in what the Catholic Church says?

How does God do it? Faithfully? OMNILogically? We cannot judge, And Pope Francis says only generalize for alll to share, the “Gift” becoming again in One Family, One Holy Spirit.

And we are not arguing the Faith of the defined Trinity in The Catholic Faith but in all generalization Logically? and Logically The Holy Spirit is rationally The Family of God so we cannot leave out The Mother of God together with the Father and The Son always together as One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, since even before creation in undefiled logical intelligence unfailing, becoming again fulfilled in all from the faith and morality of The Christ Family becoming again in all One God from three powers through two natures, spirit and life in One Body in all One Family from where we all came, OMNILogically, I believe.

The Catholic Church can call the Persons in the Trinity faithfully however logically The Catholic Church wants the Trinity to be. I believe?

“At his coming all shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own deeds.”

“Although he is God and man, he is not two, but one Christ. One, however, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the taking of humanity into God.”

But logically, the Trinity is from Here how we logically see the two natures God from the Incorruptible Holy Spirit Family conceived alive in all mankind from Three Gods One Created from the Father God in all becoming through Mary, God of Baptized Transformation through the Immaculate Comception, God of Mercy and Queen of Heaven in The Catholic Church of God for all becoming immaculate flesh in One Body for Jesus, God of Justice, God of Eternal Priestly Authority of Spirit and Life in the New Adam through The Christ, The Family of God conceived through the Christ flesh in all mankind and is I believe OMNILogically the Christ in all mankind becoming in all from Sacrifice through Penance forgiven becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.

Logically, from the New Eve Baptized immortally transformed through Holy Spirit Incorruption for Jesus in the Christ becoming in all mankind through The New Adam in Holy Spirit Incorruption we stand before Him through two natures “Well pleasing to Him before God” to be able to become from our Own Baptized Body of Christ sanctified and without sin from immortally transformed Bodied from the New Eve for becoming glorified and incorruptibly transfigured brothers and sisters through The Christ through two natures in One Body becoming Sons and Daughters of God in all becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being. To me intrinsically understanding the Trinity as proper from three Gods and Powers in being Personal Gods preexisting we logically know the Trinity as Three Gods from the Father through the Mother for The Son and each God separately God and each God equal in the Powers of God becoming in all through The Christ from Sacrifice through Penance forgiven in all One Body of God in two natures becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family. I believe, We intrinsically understand what could be New Evangelization for all as Catholic “Rebirth and Salvation” just like the Child of God we become from become in all through and in becoming again One Holy Family One God in being, OMNILogicalGod, I believe.

To me the question becomes what is the Trinity and what is saved and what really logically is saved is from born again and what is born again is flesh being logically able to become again from death through life from the spirit through the souls of all through two natures in One Body, in all generalizations.

To me OMNILogically correctly I believe all mankind is created blood and water born for the creation of the souls failed from the Father in two natures, mortal through the created flesh and corrupt from the spirit in the created souls of all mankind. The Logical Trinity is from Three Personal Gods in being and three preexisting Powers becoming inside of all mankind living becoming again One Family, I believe. The Christ becomes in all mankind through two natures from the Power of The Holy Spirit Family conceived through the created souls of all for the flesh to be able to become again from the New Eve from Baptism becoming Holy Spirit Incorruption sanctified through two natures One Body through the Church becoming from the Immaculate Flesh for the created souls in Holy Spirit Incorruption for all becoming flesh immortality through Holy Spirit Incorruption in One Body through the New Eve.

Peace always,
Stephen

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The word Ecclesia/Ekklesia (Latin/Greek) does not mean “congregation”. The English word Church from the Anglo-Saxon Cirice, that from the Old High German Kirihha, and that from the Greek Kyriakon (“of the Lord”), likely in the sense of “Kyriakon Doma”, meaning “House of the Lord”. Ecclesia rather comes from the Greek Ekklesia meaning “called out”. The word used in the New Testament is the Greek.

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So true Mary always says do what he tells you and all disciples becoming to the church through the new eve transformed immortalized through the immaculate flesh into the Catholic church, I Believe.

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Those walls of text may come in handy if I get a high tide of anything. Who or what is ST? ST says (cut to the chase) that if you believe in Jesus you have to believe in the Trinity, and that such belief is required for salvation. Right? I suppose that this is not Catholic dogma nor in the Bible. If so, it’s an opinion. So it’s evidence for the argument that belief in the Trinity is required for salvation. If the argument is correct, no belief, no heaven.

We know from the Gospel that the good thief is in heaven, so if ST is right, the good thief believed in the Trinity.

I imagine that everyone in heaven, seeing God as He is, acknowledges the Trinity. But that’s not belief. I think that belief for salvation means believing before you die.

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(1) ST is Summa Theologiae (by st Thomas)

(2) “And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the house of Israel 30- the Law and the Gospel were together inn force; 31 but on the gibbet of his death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees, 32 fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, 33 establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. 34 “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” 35” - Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, #29

Since the New Law was promulgated at the Death, this means that EXPLICIT FAITH in the Trinity was made absolutely necessary for salvation after that point. You must believe in the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as God for salvation. No exceptions.

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Right, but merely believing is not enough. Catholics do not believe in faith alone. The Bible does not teach faith alone. I know that Protestants often will claim that if you don’t have works, then you really don’t believe. And I understand this, but belief is only a part of what the Bible instructs us to partake in. Jesus invites us to a deeper relationship with Him.

In my analogy, you can say that you believe you are in a relationship with someone, and you can show it by buying flowers and going through her stuff to find out more about her, but merely believing you are in a relationship with someone is not the same thing as a Covenantal relationship with someone. It is stalking ; )

Too many Protestants (and sadly some Catholics) think that Catholics believe that we can be in Covenant, but do not need to have a relationship with the Holy Trinity. This is false. In order to trust (have faith) in someone, you usually need to have a relationship with them. Or maybe you are just a very trusting person, in which you could fall for false teaching more easily and be deceived by anything and anyone. Which is why being in a Covenant with someone who is trustworthy is important. And no one is more trustworthy than God.

How does one enter into Covenant? Simply believing that you are? Simply professing that you are? Or are there more formal ways that one enters into Covenant alongside believing and professing? You see, many Protestants treat everything as an either/or. Either you believe in God or you believe in works. We believe that relationships take work. Covenantal relationships take a sacrifice.

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Becoming a member of the Church is this: professing the true faith and being baptised (Pius XII, Mys. Cor. #22,23). This is, in a sense, partaking in the New Testament, but not in its fullness. For, to do so in its fullness, one must do these things, but also love the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, and mind (Mt. xx. 37).

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