Vatican II's heretical ecclesiology

General
1

Vatican II, “pastoral”: “These faithful are by baptism made one body with Christ and are constituted among the People of God…” (says anyone who has been baptised is a member of the Body of Christ)

Florence, dogma: “…all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”

Stay away from Modernism.
May the Lord’s Countenance be upon you.

2

I have a question for you. When did Vatican I begin?

When I google it, it tells me around 1869.

Why do trads dress like they are from the 1950’s? Why not go back to the fashion of the 1860’s? Or go back even to the fashion of the First and Second Centuries? Why do you go back to the end of Vatican I? How trad are you really? ; )

I have friends who attend the TLM and I am very sympathetic of how Pope Francis (whom I was no fan of) treated traditional Catholic Christians.

I also see valid points of Vatican II, but also think that it has been abused. I do think we need to go back to some of the practices from Vatican I, but there are things from Vatican II that I think valuable and good. If you were honest with yourself, there are things about Vatican I that needed to be addressed, just as there are things that were improved during the counter-Reformation. It does not mean that I think that the Reformation was good. Does this make sense?

3

Tradition is tradition bro. If I were pope I’d probably get rid of the cardinals and do other stuff that makes everything traditional, to the point where it’s before 800s around. Even though the papal tiara is traditional, it’s thought to be from st Nicholas I (800s) but that’s too recent. So I’d just be the most traditional I could be.

4

Wouldnt it be more important to remain close to the bishop and presbyters?
I had this discussion with my prayer brother, and he said that the best and most orthodox place to be was to be close to the Church, probably represented by the present pope and bishops and all the rest.

I ask this question a bit rhetorically, as a question for reflection.

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I am 50/50 on sedevacantism. I have no respect for the orthodoxy of the post conciliar pontificates. However, I will not actually reject them because I’m scared that they are actually popes. But I don’t have a good relationship with modernists.

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Have you heard of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Why are you Catholic? I’m genuinely interested in your reasoning.

7

Because EOoxy is heretical?

8

Probably, because you come off as angry most the time.

I was in Adoration last night until about 2 AM (do Trad believe in Adoration or is this a Vatican II thing) and I was reading a book that I’ve been reading for a few months now where the author is recalling the differences between the Catholic Church of his 1950’s upbringing and the changes of Vatican 2. I still can’t tell where he falls on either side (as if there are sides). I see good things about how the Church used to do many things and I see good things about how the Church does many things today.

In the chapter that I was reading last night, he compares the funeral rite liturgy of Vatican I to that of the Vatican II. The old borderline rejects the merits of Christ. It views things in a royal context (King/Servant), where as the new liturgical rite views things in more of a Father/Son context. I cannot relate to the former (which I guess makes me a modernist), but I can relate to a Father/Child relationship.

The author points out how the old Prayers were more balanced between having a lowly view of oneself, while a very high view of God. While there is an imbalance in the new Prayers between the two, on the side of God and less about self. The problem with the New Prayers is that it does seem to be a lower view of God and a higher view of self than the old, however, the old appears non-genuine, where as the new Prayers are more real.

While the old is too far in one direction (to where it isn’t even relatable and feels fake/forced). It is like how my Grandma (who is a saint) would confuse putting herself down for humility. We have value, because of Who God is. And humility is putting God and others before ourselves. The old Prayers however focus too much on self in my opinion. Saying that we are trash. But, we are not trash. God does not see us as trash.

The new goes too far in the opposite direction (to where it feels a bit fluffy and too relaxed). I have a cousin who is not Catholic and when he drinks too much, he goes around telling everyone how much he loves them. “I love you guys,” he slurs. That is kind of what the new liturgical rites feel like. If feels a little inauthentic. And thought there is truth in what he is saying, it feels like it isn’t really him (if that makes sense).

So how do we get to a place where we admit that we are not trash, but that we need the mercy of God, because we have not been humble (in the true sense of the word). We have put ourselves above God and above others, which is gravely sinful and disordered.

I have not finished the book, but I think the author is where I am at. There were both good and bad things about Vatican I and there are both bad and good things about Vatican II. And I understand the reasoning behind the old and the new (some valid and some less valid). I also know that a compromise between the two would make neither the Trads nor the Modernists happy. But, perhaps it isn’t about us and more about a high view of God and about a relationship with Jesus. We can do both and should do both.

9

Vatican II decreed and implemented teachings previously condemned by the Infallible Teaching Magisterium of the Church. These heresies were primarily in the areas of religious liberty and false ecumenism, and the unity of the Church with their new heretical ecclesiology.

10

Can’t forget Lumen Gentium 22’s collegiality where they claim that the bishops are a second head of the Church, thus giving the Church two heads like a monster (condemned by Boniface VIII). Perhaps the worst two are that Non Catholics cans be members of the Catholic Church and that Muslims worship God.

1 Like
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Coming in hot :joy: Welcome to the CatholicTalk Community :slightly_smiling_face:

Let me ask you this. Do you think we should go back to the day where Christians killed each other over theological differences? There are Catholic Saints that were killed by Orthodox Christians and there are (I’m sure) Orthodox Saints who were killed by Catholic Christians. And we know that Catholics and Protestants were killing each other.

I personally would rather share my Catholic Faith with other Christians and they share theirs with me. I do see a problem with Catholic Priests having PRıDE Masses and saying “Namaste” as a greeting. I also have a problem with Pachamama idols in Catholic Cathedrals.

I have Protestant friends and I have LDS friends and we have some pretty great conversations (respectfully) and I Pray for their conversion, but I’m not going to wield a sword, call them heretics, and demand they convert or face death.

Catholics need to be careful not to throw around the term heretic like Democrats do with the word “Nazi” or “racist.” The term loses its punch when used to describe anyone who disagrees with you.

And just as Baptists standing on the street telling everyone they are going to Hell if they don’t repent does not win anyone over, so also calling everyone a heretic will not win anyone over to the truth either.

And I had to look up the word ecclesiology :joy:

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(1) Non catholic Christians are merely nominal Christians, not true Christians. Non Catholics are mortal sinners.
(2) Luther’s statement that “it is not desired by the Holy Spirit that heretics get burned at the stake [this is a paraphrase]” was condemned.
(3) Catholics should not really communicate with non Catholics as friends. See Gregory XVI’s Summo Iugiter Studio, 2 John 9-10, etc.

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Peace to all,

To me, repenting is from sacrifice through penance baptized in the New Eve transformed immortality for all becoming conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit through Jesus in the new Adam for Holy Spirit incorruption in the Christ becoming again in all mankind One Holy Spirit Family One God in being logically I believe.

Peace Always,
Stephen

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If the “new Eve” you are speaking of is our lady and not the church then you are a blasphemer. That statement is utterly demonic, from the out of hell. No one at all is baptized in our lady.

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Peace to all,

Jesus and Mary are Logical Christs’ becoming from the spirit through the created souls of all for the created flesh to become through The Christ in all mankind from death through resurrection in all mankind in One Body through two natures becoming again in all One Holy Spiriti Family One God in being, OMNILogically, perhaps for all, I believe.

Logically I believe today we don’t quite understand the Two Nature God of Abraham becoming again from the spirit through the created souls of all in the created flesh becoming again in One Body, One Holy Spirt Family, One God in being, maybe so.

Logical rebirth and salvation is from the family powers in the Trinity family becoming again one Holy Spirit, family one God, I believe in all generalizations, I’m thinking could be.

From the logical formula of Baptism in all generalizations, all mankind become Baptized into the Church of Christ, and is the New Eve, Co- redemptive for immaculate flesh transformation in all becoming from death through resurrection in the Christ from Sacrifice trough Penance forgive for all mankind becoming again One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I believe, logically, I think, maybe.

Jesus’ role as Co-redemption is through the New Adam, becoming the Christ in all mankind from sacrifice through penance, forgiven becoming again in all mankind one Holy Spirit Family One God in being, to me I believe, perhaps.

Peace always,
Stephen

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I know some pretty nominal Catholics (I might even be one of them in the eyes of some).

Condemned by whom? Are you calling for a genocide? How does the Fifth Suggestion apply to your view? I was on the side of the Trads when it was discovered that the Feds were investigating them. However, I can see why if a majority of Trads say some of the things that you believe.

2 John 1:9-10 is talking about “those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh” (verse 7). Last tim I checked, most Christians and even the LDS believe this.

Verse 11 says don’t even greet non-believers. But there is a problem with this. Jesus sent the Apostles out in the homes of unbelievers. Were they “sharing in their evil works”? How do individuals learn about Jesus if you don’t show them? At the end of Mass, The Priest says, “Go, the Mass is ended,” implying for the faithful to go out into the world to live out what they have received, but only to those who already are Catholic? Doesn’t make sense. Based on verse 13, it seems to me that these were fairly new Christians. It would be wise for new Christians not be be around others who are teaching things contrary to the Apostolic Faith. For the same reasons that the Early Church Councils advised not ordaining new converts to the Presbyter.

The author of Second John also mentions meeting with this community face-to-face so that their joy might meet (I presume for the first time). Many Trads that I have encountered do not really seem that joyful in my opinion (with the exception of a friend of mine, who’s family goes tot the TLM on the first Sunday of every Month. I would be surprised if one of his sons does not become a Priest.) You, yourself, seems quite miserable. You are not selling that Trad-life.

It is better to get to know someone, in spite of what you might believe 2nd John is saying.

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Merriam-Webster defines modernism as “a tendency in theology to accommodate traditional religious teaching to contemporary thought and especially to devalue supernatural elements.” I don’t think that’s what you folks mean by it. If not, please tell us.

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This is utterly demonic. Our lady is not our redeemer, and you even call Christ “coredempter”. You cannot be catholic and affirm that our lady saved us or that we are baptized into our lady.

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You have to understand that there is no such thing a “liberal” Catholicism vs. “conservative” Catholicism. There is ONE Catholic Faith that is infallible, indefectible and immutable.

The Catholic Church cannot contradict Herself in doctrine or morals, without the defect of the Church itself. The Catholic Church’s teaching has been impeccably consistent through the ages…until, Vatican II.

Just one example; the Catholic Church has always taught as Ex Cathedra Dei Fide the dogma of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that is, “outside the Church there is no salvation.” This dogma has been defined by the ordinary as well as the extra ordinary magisterium and therefore anyone who denies this dogma is not Catholic.

But Vatican II teaches in Unitatis Redintegratio that schismatic and non-Catholic sects are “a means of salvation.” This is a direct contradiction of a Dei Fide dogma of the Catholic Church and is explicit heresy.

This is just one example.

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Peace to all,

It is a recognized custom for Catholics to have frequent recourse to that prayer for the unity of the Church which the Saviour Himself on the eve of His death so fervently appealed to His Father: “That they may all be one”.(32)

To me I believe, So true, logical salvation is literally born again becoming from failed flesh through the Immaculate Conception into the Catholic Church in all generalizations transforming all in the New Eve of immortality to be able to become from death through resurrectioin in two natures, spirit and life in One Body becoming glorified and transfigured and logically reimaged and “Saved” through the Christ In all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, to me, I believe, possibly so.

And to me logically for all, there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church logically through Divine Mercy for all, I believe, for all whom have not harmed their fellow man or maid servant yet not fully knowing The Christ becoming again in all One Holy Family, I believe.

Mary God of Mercy, God of Flesh Transformation through The Immaculate Conception even after death brings into the New Eve through Her Immaculate Conception for all even after death becoming Baptized into the Christ for all whom have not harmed their fellow man or maid servant, becoming to know the Christ from death in purgation through Divine Mercy becoming to know again in all One Holy Family One God in being, to me rationally, I believe.

Peace always,
Stephen