The Trinity = 3 Gods

Who cares?
A true Christian believes in Christ, not Church Dogma.

Believing that Christ exists is a dogma. Do you believe Catholic Christians do not believe in Jesus?

You do not believe that Jesus is God, I think I am understanding your position correctly. Do you believe He is one of many Gods (polytheism)? Or do you believe He is a lesser God? Do you believe that Jesus is fully man and not fully
divine? Possess by God maybe? Is that what you think the Spirit* is? Or do you believe in Modalism? I’m trying to understand what you believe, but you have not explained it very well. Can you explain what you do believe, rather than what you don’t believe?

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Jesus is God’s only BEGOTTEN son,
NOT ā€œGod-the-Sonā€.
Nobody BEGAT God!

What do you mean by this? I know what the Church teaches when she says ā€œbegotten,ā€ but I suspect you mean something different.

Let’s start here: Is Jesus fully divine, partially divine, or absent of divinity?

How are men begotten?
GOD is not begotten?

Jesus is divine- JUST like his God and Father.

Do you interchange the word ā€œbegottenā€ and the word ā€œmade?ā€

In our Apostle’s Creed, we say that Jesus was ā€œbegotten, not madeā€¦ā€

We believe that Jesus, the second person of the Holy Trinity, has eternally existed (John 1:1-3; John 8:58). He became incarnate (John 1:14).

What denomination do you now belong to? Still curious. Or are you a ā€œJust me and my Bible type of Christianā€? Do you attend a Church? I’m curious how you came to believe what you believe.

Do you believe God was BEGOTTEN?
The Trinity was BEGOTTEN???

Again, you are confusing the word ā€œbegottenā€ with ā€œcreated.ā€ These two words are not interchangeable (theologically speaking).

No, the Trinity was not crated, God has always existed (hints the eternal present, ā€œI Amā€).

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Do you believe God was BEGOTTEN?
The Trinity was BEGOTTEN???

The greek word ā€œmonogenesā€ often translated ā€œonly begottenā€ should probably better be translated ā€œone of a kindā€ or ā€œuniqueā€. I believe that would clear up some of the confusion here.

For thus point I quote the late Michael Heiser, a scholar, who studied a lot on the Trinity.

So, Jesus is not ā€œbegottenā€, as if born, but he is unique.

The discussion on the meaning of ā€œmonogenesā€ is relevant, since it is part of our dogmatic confession as catholics, and we repeat this confession every mass (We believe in Jesus Christ, his only begotten ā€œmonogenesā€ son)

Thank you, pdanoe, for insight on monogenes. While you are helping us, what in the world does consubstantial mean? The English translation of the Nicene Creed used to say, ā€œone in being,ā€ but that was changed to consubstantial; I wonder about the translators sometimes—as a native English speaker, I don’t think I’ve ever spoken about the substance of a person, and ā€œsubstanceā€ is often used as a euphemism for illegal drugs. When I recited the words ā€œone in being,ā€ I could kind of guess at what I said I believed, but now I have very little idea.

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Hello Literalman :slight_smile:
Still new to this forum, so I do not have the ā€œquoteā€ option yet. But paraphrasing, you ask me on the difference between ā€œone in beingā€ versus the newer ā€œconsubstantialā€.

The nicene creed with greek text above : https://bibletranslation.ws/down/Nicene_Creed.pdf
It seems to depend on the translation of one word in the greek, namely į½Ī¼ĪæĻƒĻĻƒĪ¹ĪæĪ½ , homoousion, homo - ousion. ā€œhomoā€ meaning ā€œsameā€, and ā€œousionā€ meaning ā€œbeingā€ or ā€œessenceā€.

I believe that ā€œconsubstantialā€ would emphasize that the Son is of the same essence as the Father, whereas ā€œone in beingā€ would emphasize that the Son and the Father is part of the same divine being. The idea behind ā€œessenceā€ is that there are certain divine things, and certain created things. When one is divine, one is not created. So Jesus was not created.

More on this in wikipedia: Homoousion - Wikipedia

That still is no answer to how God created him!
He had a beginning!

Col 1:15- He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

:rofl:BNwhwhhahahahahahahaha

Sorry, Steve- that question makes no sense to me.
Besides, you don’t know God at ALL.

I suggest we immediately head to the greek text
Colossians 1:15 with interlinear greek (biblehub) : Colossians 1:15 Interlinear: who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
We see that the word used is ā€œprototokosā€, proto - tokos, meaning ā€œfirst gave-birthā€ (see the word origin part). So yes, in a biological sense, the word means something about having been born.

There is however also a very important biblical meaning about being ā€œfirstbornā€. A firstborn son would receive the double inheritance when the parents died. (an example of this is when Elisha asks Elijah for the double portion of his spirit. Elisha really asks to be the firstborn of Elijahs followers). Being ā€œfirstbornā€ is a special legal position.

So one would rightly ask, in this text, Colossians 1:15, is the focus on the biological aspect, or is the focus on the legal positional aspect?

Only 3 verses later, in Colossians 1:18, we learn that Jesus is ā€œthe firstborn of the deadā€. Now how does that work? Is that a biological birth? Going back to Colossians 1:15, we read that Jesus was ā€œthe firstborn of all creationā€. That is a pretty big statement. Not just firstborn in his own family, not just firstborn among humans (how that would work I do not know), not just firstborn among all living things, but firstborn of all creation. I would say, surely, in Colossians 1:15 the focus is on the legal aspect. Jesus has a special position with respect to all creation.

For further bible reading on the word firstborn, perhaps start here: Strong's Greek: 4416. Ļ€ĻĻ‰Ļ„ĻŒĻ„ĪæĪŗĪæĻ‚ (prototokos) -- Firstborn

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See what I mean? :rofl: :rofl:

@Question

Not sure that anyone is able to grasp much from your one-liners. I gave you a fair try. Enough for now.

I take the words of Christ over yours!