OK thank you.
It seems plausible that Our Lord might on His death ‘descend into Limbo and Purgatory for the reasons you state’, but the Creed doesn’t say that, rather it refers to His descent into Hell.
So back to my original question - Why would Our Lord need to descend into Hell ? And from what scriptural source did the Nicene Councillors secure this idea.
I stress these are my perhaps simplistic wonderings’ and I don’t expect any definitive responses.
Well…I personally think Jesus didn’t descend into Hell and that they got Jesus’s life completely wrong. And that’s because, if we had a truly original Bible, it would be 777 books. But in our current Bibles, we only have 66 books. So we only have a fraction of the truth. I personally think Jesus’s life was very different than what we are told, especially growing up. But, you can thank the Church Hierarchy for saying that those books that were taken out are heretical. I blame the hierarchy, we’re huemans and we’re not stupid. Give us the missing books, let us read them, and make up our own minds about them. If these books are heretical like they say, then we should be able to arrive at the same conclusion, correct?
Subtlety is how the Devil plays. It’s through subtlety is why we have the problems in this life the way we do. Because at some point, our ancestors agreed to how this society functions, and society is highly dysfunctional. Most homes are dysfunctional too. And the 7 families who ran this sh*tshow wanted it to be exactly like this. Nice group of people huh?
This pooped up in my feed this morning : )
I don’t see any stains from the poop.
Just kidding, I knew what you meant lol.
Peace to all,
Mary is God and logically the Catholic Church misses again and again, OMNILogically.
“Everything comes from Him – Christ – as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him. The word ‘Co-redemptrix’ would obscure this origin,” Pope Benedict said.
Logically everything is From Him, The Father The Mother and The Son and is The Holy Spirit Family One God in being,
Pope Benedict and The Catholic Church logically does not understand the Christ as the Spiritual Marriage of Mary and Jesus becoming the CHrist in all mankind. They also do not see properly the Holy Spirit as The Family Of God, I believe.
The church believes that those in heaven can pray and intercede for people still on earth and, “among those chosen and glorified with Christ, first and foremost is his Mother,” the note said. “Therefore, we can affirm that Mary has a unique collaboration in the saving work that Christ carries out in his Church. With this intercession, Mary can become for us a motherly sign of the Lord’s mercy.” Here we see The Christ is Mary and Jesus in One Body, becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
The Catholic Church can not see logically The Christ is Mary and Jesus in One Body, and until the Catholic Church can see this the Catholic Church cannot see the Holy Spirit as The Family of God One God in being.
The Christ is more than Just Jesus and the Christ is the Immaculate Conception’s marriage with the Incorruptible Holy Spirit Family of God Becoming One Body in the Christ alive and living in all mankind becoming again in all creation One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Where did all of the blood and water even come from? He was dead? No! The Blood and Water is Rebirth and Salvation for all from the Cross, “Disciple,” “Ecce Mater tua” opening the “Womb” The Gates of The New Heaven and Earth from the First Born Christ of all Creation, becoming again Heaven for all, OMNILogically. The Christ is both natures now fulfilled for the Holy Family conceived through the Spirit for Jesus from the Flesh through Mary becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Blood and water from the cross is birth and salvation for the First Christ reborn of salvation for all creation back to Heaven for all through the flesh becoming again in all One Family.
“Given the necessity of explaining Mary’s subordinate role to Christ in the work of Redemption, it would not be appropriate to use the title ‘Co-redemptrix’ to define Mary’s cooperation,” the doctrinal note said. But the Doctrinla does not understant the Christ is half Mary from the Immaculate Conception, OMNILogically.
Mary is God and logically the Catholic Church misses again and again, OMNILogically.
Death and descention closed the Chasm of the Bosom of Abraham with flesh from all the Saints and angels and Old Covenant Saved and martyrs all awaiting in the Bosom of Abraham with crosses over to the Chasm of Hell and busts down the gates and tears down his walls and binds Satin in his own home destroying death forever with eternal power and what strength and what strength and power and with all Jesus through the Christ resurrects both natures, God and Temple, Spirit and Life from the incorruptible spirit of all through the resurrected immaculate immortal flesh for all becoming again glorified and transfigured in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Peace always,
Stephen
Ha-Ha! : ) I’ll leave it, because it is funny. I was still half-asleep when I posted : )
StephenAndrew
You seem to mainly apply allegorical interpretations to many events in the life, death, resurrection of Our Lord and that’s quite nice, indeed of poetic quality. For me the simpler expression of the words of scripture suffice, as they do for most.
I do wonder about the source of such advanced interpretations - do they derive from the writings of Christian scholars over the millennia, or are some of your own creation, inspired as it might be.
Peace to all,
Soul on the site introduced me to Maria Valtorta,
Maria Valtorta became the pin of Jesus, literally, and in reading her work, logic is confirmed through the logic of the mind of God from her writings to me.
Peace always,
Stephen
I had no knowledge of Valtorta or her writings before seeing the reference on this site. I note in recent exploring about her works there is no Vatican imprimatur and there have been Vatican issued statements refuting any supernatural origin. But that’s (IMO) not to say her works are devoid of true spiritual value - I cannot judge being ‘unread’.
Perhaps you and others have read the deeply research based book by Spanish theologian Jose A Pagola “Jesus - An Historical Approximation”. It makes no claim of supernatural origin simply of deriving from 30 years of extensive research of the study by scholars of the subject be they Jewish, Christian, Islamic even nontheists.
This book brought Jesus brilliantly to life for me as never before, particularly in His humanity but in His divinity too. It has no imprimatur, and was originally on the Vatican refuted list but as I recall after some re-editing by Pagola it became acceptable. Its comprehensive references to dozens of scholarly studies is a real jewel.
Peace to all,
So true, Lawrence, and I am sure there is plenty of actual and great histortical non fiction, through his works.
Jose A Pagola is The Historical Pen of Jesus
Maria Valtorta is the Literary Pen of Jesus
Stephen Andrew is the Logical Pen of Jesus, I believe.
It appears to be primarily used by an individual named Stephen Andrew and related forums/websites to describe a specific, logical and comprehensive view of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity
Peace always,
Stephen, The Logical Pen of Jesus
Hello Lawrence,
… Some thoughts …
The meanings of hell, as I understand, in the Creed, is referring not to eternal damnation, but to the place which can be akin to our modern idea of purgatory, or a kind of netherworld from the common understanding of that period in time.
In this sense, Jesus, would have spent (some) of those 3 days, there … where the souls of the dead before Him, reside …
~
(my paraphrasing understandings drawn from the latter … below )
~
When Jesus rose, on Easter Sunday, he returned from that ‘hell’, with those souls he has brought forth from purgatory to ascend to heaven with Him. (I think there are paintings of Fra Angelico regarding this).
~
For example… When I say the Creed before Rosary,
I emphasize in my own heart, at this point …
~ “ He descended into Hell; …
~ (In thought, here, I add to the latter .. ‘for the resurrection of souls’ )
~" the third day He arose again from the dead;
Open and asking for suggestions,
Take care,
Michael
Peace to all,
What never dies is the eternal spirit manifesting for the created souls through the flesh. Old covenant animal sacrifice only saves the spirit in the souls awaiting in the Bosom of Abraham.
Jesus spent the days before east of Jerusalem near the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was in the tomb , the city of Jerusalem, for three days and nights, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday out of the tomb Saturday morning, early and into the Chasm of the Bosom of Abraham resurrection for all the angels, insane and hearts, and old covenant saved from the spirit through the flesh with all crossing over to the chasm of hell, busting down the gates and tearing down the walls and binding Satan in his home home, destroying death forever for all becoming again one Holy Spirit, family, one God in being, I believe.
Peace always,
Stephen
The sentence that you quote ;”he descended into hell” is obviously absurd. But if we are going to apply logic and common sense to christian doctrine and catholic teaching there will be many many more such insurmountable problems. Better to simply not ask the questions in order to maintain your faith.
Again, “Hell” in the context of the Creed, refers to Sheol, or Limbo, not the eternal Hell of the damned. God closed the gates of Heaven to humanity after Eve and Adam disobeyed Him, and from that point up until Jesus’s Resurrection, just souls who died having merited Heaven on earth went to the Kingdom of Limbo awaiting Jesus, and His re-opening of the gates of Heaven. Therefore, Jesus’ descent was a singular event in which he liberated these souls, and they, aside from Him, were Heaven’s first human inhabitants.
For example, “in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19), and “Now this, ‘He ascended’, what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Eph. 4:9).
I disagree. Question with boldness. Ask God what you are struggling with understanding. He wants us to ask questions. The Apostles themselves had many questions. Questions that appear to us (who have the benefit of hindsight) as dumb.
If you think “Jesus descending into hell” is obviously absurd, maybe you do not have a proper understanding of what this verse is referring to. Are you interpreting to mean Hell, as in the place where those who are/will be damned go? If yes, this is not what that verse is referring to.
I can see what you’re saying, but there are so many other words that could’ve been used, why use Hell? What was wrong with “descended to the dead” which is what has been said for a long time. Why choose “Hell” specifically?
I’m telling you guys…you need to question this stuff instead of just shoving it aside, because this is how evil operates. It starts off with subtlety and basically grows from there. Most people would be like “Oh…they don’t really mean hell.” Then why choose that as a way to describe a holding place for the dead? “He descended to the dead” was good enough, why change it? For what reason?
Most people would say “Oh it’s just a retranslation, they don’t literally mean hell.” But, as you can see, all it takes is for one word to change and it changes the entire meaning of what concept they were trying to get across. This is why you shouldn’t constantly retranslate The Bible, cause it changes the meaning.
Peace to all,
God made a promise to Abraham and swore by His Own Name eternal life to the descendants of Abraham and 2000 years later fulfilled His promise from the spirit through the life for The Christ becoming again in all One Family, OMNiLogically, I believe.
To me what is not absurd is knowing from the Tree of Knowledge through the Tree of Life how the Mind of God works, OMNiLogically, I believe.
How can creation never fail forever statically dynamically pulsing forever through His Passion becoming again One Family. Logically from the Power of the Holy Spirit Family through the flesh becoming One Body for all becoming again in all One Family.
Logically, Jesus descends first to the Chasm of Abraham and He crosses over from the Chasm of the Bosom of Abraham with all awaiting life resurrection from the sprit through the flesh for the Christ to the Chasm of Hell destroying death forever in all becoming again in all One Family, I believe.
The Christ descended to Hell and the Bosom of Abraham, both chasms one emptied and with all one destroyed forever, like a thief in the night.
“His Cross was rather bloody. He could hardly roll His stone.” Ian Anderson
Resurrection is through the death from The Tree of Knowledge through the created flesh from the always alive Holy Spirit Family Tree of Life for all created souls becoming again in all One Spirit and Life Family of God, I believe.
Peace always,
Stephen
The first edition of The Poem of the Man-God was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books for not having an imprimatur, but it shouldn’t have been placed there, because verbal approval for its publication was given by Pope Pius II in front of three priests, but others ignored the Pope’s command. Since then, subsequent editions have received imprimaturs, and have been published in multiple languages.
As for the February 22, 2025 press release from the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) regarding Maria Valtorta’s writings, they said, “It should be reiterated that alleged “visions”, “revelations,” and “messages” contained in the writings of Maria Valtorta—or, in any case, attributed to them—cannot be regarded as having a supernatural origin. Rather, they should be considered simply as literary forms that the author used to narrate the life of Jesus Christ in her own way”. Any honest objective investigator wouldn’t and shouldn’t automatically take their word for it, especially when they failed to give any indication of whether they reviewed the proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin. My response to the DDF’s decision mirrors that of those given by the Maria Valtorta’s Readers’ Group, as expressed in the following article: Response to the Vatican’s 2025 Press Release on Maria Valtorta. See excerpts below.
The February 22, 2025, press release from the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) regarding Maria Valtorta’s writings is not part of the Ordinary Magisterium. It is a disciplinary clarification, not a formal teaching on faith or morals. It does not carry the authoritative weight of magisterial documents like encyclicals or catechetical texts. It’s fallible, and we hold that the DDF’s statement that Maria Valtorta’s work “cannot be considered of supernatural origin” is not only incorrect, but also absurd, given the overwhelming evidence of its supernatural nature. We place this erroneous judgment by the DDF in the same category as other historical mistakes made by this office:
• The erroneous declaration that Saint Padre Pio’s stigmata was “not of supernatural origin,” along with the multiple censures of him.
• The initial placement of St. Faustina Kowalska’s writings on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Holy Office, a decision later reversed with her canonization
.• The condemnation of the works of St. Thomas Aquinas on January 18, 1277, which was eventually annulled.
• Venerable Mary of Agreda’s Mystical City of God, which was examined for fourteen years, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books for three months, then vindicated by Pope Clement XI, who issued two decrees strictly prohibiting its future inclusion on the Index. In the past century, two Popes affirmed her work, even extending Apostolic Blessings to its readers and promoters—an action far removed from the earlier judgment of the Hierarchy, which had placed it on the Index.
• During the pontificate of Pope Leo XIII, the Index of Forbidden Books was revised, and approximately one thousand books were removed, highlighting the fluidity of some of these judgments.
Therefore, the Maria Valtorta Readers’ Group:
- Personally believes in the supernatural origin of Maria Valtorta’s writings.
- Affirms the right of other Catholics to personally believe in the supernatural origin of her writings.
- Publicly acknowledges the DDF statement which says they do not consider it supernatural in origin, though we respectfully disagree with it, considering it an error.
While we disagree with the DDF’s conclusion, we still adhere to the discipline of not presenting Valtorta’s writings as if they have received approval by the Vatican as coming from a supernatural source. Where some may disagree with us is in whether we can disagree with the factual accuracy of the DDF statement. We maintain that well-informed Catholics, understanding that not all statements from the DDF are infallible, may rightfully doubt certain conclusions. If informed Catholics can present credible evidence that a statement is erroneous, they are not committing a sin by rejecting it. We do not reject the authority of the DDF, but rather we challenge the validity of the specific conclusion in this case, considering it to be an erroneous judgment.
- There is compelling evidence that Maria Valtorta’s work is far more than just a novel. This evidence spans across theological, spiritual, literary, and scientific fields, as well as the immense good it has brought to countless souls. When examined with honesty, it becomes clear that the work cannot simply be attributed to the literary imaginings of a human being, particularly considering the breadth of expertise Valtorta lacked and her severely compromised physical condition at the time of writing. For further details, please refer to the following sub-chapters in our free e-book (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work), which provide information on scientific evidence supporting Maria Valtorta’s claim of supernatural inspiration:
• Proof by Astronomy (Such as Detailed Astronomic Observations Over the Course of Hundreds of Pages in Her 1940s Visions that a Purdue University Professor of Theoretical Physics Testified Are Remarkably Consistent with Her Dating System and that She Could Not Have Predicted or Verified Without a Computer)
• Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology (Including Her Describing Palestine and Over 350 Geographical Locations in the Holy Land with a Level of Precision in Multiple Fields that She Could Not Possibly Have Known Without Modern Electronic Scholastic Resources or Access to an Extensive Collection of Books/Atlases in the 1940s that Eyewitnesses and Common Sense Confirm She Did Not—Nor Could Have Had—Access to and Which Itself Arguably Would Have Been Insufficient to Complete Her Work)
• Proof by its Knowledge, Depth, and Eminence in the Theological, Exegetical, Mystical, and Mariological Fields (Which Many World-Renowned Trustworthy Theologians Say Exceed Anything They Have Ever Read)
• Proof by Her Detailed, Exact, and Often Unparalleled Knowledge of the Political, Religious, Economic, Social, and Familial Situation—as Well as the Dress—of the Ancient Jewish, Samaritan, and Roman Peoples that Astound Even World-Renowned Biblical Scholars
• Proof by The Poem’s Unquestionable Expertise, Deep Knowledge, and Exhaustive Information in Such a Wide Variety of Theological and Scientific Subjects, and the Fact Almost 15,000 Handwritten Pages of Such Was Written in Only 3½ Years Amidst Her Unusually Severe Physical Condition and Illnesses and Even Though She Lacked the Learning, Resources, and Books Required to Write a Work a Tenth as Profound as This
• Proof by the Extraordinary, Unprecedented Way in Which it Was Written, Compiled, & Put Together (Such as the Fact that 166 Out of the 647 Chapters Were Written Out of Order, and She has Jesus Ministering in Over 350 Named Locations and Traveling Over 4,000 Miles in Six Different Cycles Across Palestine, and Yet Jesus and All of the Other 500+ Characters are Never in a Place Inconsistent with Either the Story Line or the Timing and Distance Necessities Required for Traveling, and There is Not One Person, Place, or Thing Out of Place)
• Proof By the Writing’s Extraordinary Purity, Holiness, Loftiness, and Eminence Among the Writings that Exist in the World
• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by Research that Shows that The Poem is Not Based on (or a Mere Expansion of) any Known Gospel Manuscript Standard, Version, or School of Critical Thought, Something Expected if a Work of This Magnitude, Detail, and Accuracy Had Been a Mere Human Effort
• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) in How The Poem Resolves Many Problems in the Gospel Accounts Which Scholars Have Struggled with For Years (Including Apparent Contradictions Between the Different Gospel Accounts and Apparent Errors or Inconsistencies Within the Same Gospel Account), and How It Furthermore Corrects Certain Misunderstandings and Translation Errors that Have Been Perpetuated Throughout the Centuries
• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by the Fact Maria Valtorta’s Visions of Christ’s Passion Perfectly Match Detailed Findings on the Miraculous Shroud of Turin that Recent Modern Scientific Tests Have Revealed Decades After Her Writings Were Published and the Fact Her Writings Foretold Something Amazing About the Veil of Veronica Which Has Been Scientifically Proven for the First Time Decades After Her Death
• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by its Perfect Correspondence to the Ancient Liturgical and Patristic Tradition of the Ancient Catholic Byzantine Rite of the Church
• Proof by the Testimony of Countless Trustworthy Clerics, Authorities, Experts, Scientists, and Pious Lay Faithful and the Tremendously Good Fruits Produced in Individuals and in the Church as a Whole
I highly recommend checking out the links in my “About Me” section on my profile.
