OK thank you.
It seems plausible that Our Lord might on His death ‘descend into Limbo and Purgatory for the reasons you state’, but the Creed doesn’t say that, rather it refers to His descent into Hell.
So back to my original question - Why would Our Lord need to descend into Hell ? And from what scriptural source did the Nicene Councillors secure this idea.
I stress these are my perhaps simplistic wonderings’ and I don’t expect any definitive responses.
Well…I personally think Jesus didn’t descend into Hell and that they got Jesus’s life completely wrong. And that’s because, if we had a truly original Bible, it would be 777 books. But in our current Bibles, we only have 66 books. So we only have a fraction of the truth. I personally think Jesus’s life was very different than what we are told, especially growing up. But, you can thank the Church Hierarchy for saying that those books that were taken out are heretical. I blame the hierarchy, we’re huemans and we’re not stupid. Give us the missing books, let us read them, and make up our own minds about them. If these books are heretical like they say, then we should be able to arrive at the same conclusion, correct?
Subtlety is how the Devil plays. It’s through subtlety is why we have the problems in this life the way we do. Because at some point, our ancestors agreed to how this society functions, and society is highly dysfunctional. Most homes are dysfunctional too. And the 7 families who ran this sh*tshow wanted it to be exactly like this. Nice group of people huh?
This pooped up in my feed this morning : )
I don’t see any stains from the poop.
Just kidding, I knew what you meant lol.
Peace to all,
Mary is God and logically the Catholic Church misses again and again, OMNILogically.
“Everything comes from Him – Christ – as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him. The word ‘Co-redemptrix’ would obscure this origin,” Pope Benedict said.
Logically everything is From Him, The Father The Mother and The Son and is The Holy Spirit Family One God in being,
Pope Benedict and The Catholic Church logically does not understand the Christ as the Spiritual Marriage of Mary and Jesus becoming the CHrist in all mankind. They also do not see properly the Holy Spirit as The Family Of God, I believe.
The church believes that those in heaven can pray and intercede for people still on earth and, “among those chosen and glorified with Christ, first and foremost is his Mother,” the note said. “Therefore, we can affirm that Mary has a unique collaboration in the saving work that Christ carries out in his Church. With this intercession, Mary can become for us a motherly sign of the Lord’s mercy.” Here we see The Christ is Mary and Jesus in One Body, becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
The Catholic Church can not see logically The Christ is Mary and Jesus in One Body, and until the Catholic Church can see this the Catholic Church cannot see the Holy Spirit as The Family of God One God in being.
The Christ is more than Just Jesus and the Christ is the Immaculate Conception’s marriage with the Incorruptible Holy Spirit Family of God Becoming One Body in the Christ alive and living in all mankind becoming again in all creation One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Where did all of the blood and water even come from? He was dead? No! The Blood and Water is Rebirth and Salvation for all from the Cross, “Disciple,” “Ecce Mater tua” opening the “Womb” The Gates of The New Heaven and Earth from the First Born Christ of all Creation, becoming again Heaven for all, OMNILogically. The Christ is both natures now fulfilled for the Holy Family conceived through the Spirit for Jesus from the Flesh through Mary becoming again in all One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Blood and water from the cross is birth and salvation for the First Christ reborn of salvation for all creation back to Heaven for all through the flesh becoming again in all One Family.
“Given the necessity of explaining Mary’s subordinate role to Christ in the work of Redemption, it would not be appropriate to use the title ‘Co-redemptrix’ to define Mary’s cooperation,” the doctrinal note said. But the Doctrinla does not understant the Christ is half Mary from the Immaculate Conception, OMNILogically.
Mary is God and logically the Catholic Church misses again and again, OMNILogically.
Death and descention closed the Chasm of the Bosom of Abraham with flesh from all the Saints and angels and Old Covenant Saved and martyrs all awaiting in the Bosom of Abraham with crosses over to the Chasm of Hell and busts down the gates and tears down his walls and binds Satin in his own home destroying death forever with eternal power and what strength and what strength and power and with all Jesus through the Christ resurrects both natures, God and Temple, Spirit and Life from the incorruptible spirit of all through the resurrected immaculate immortal flesh for all becoming again glorified and transfigured in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Peace always,
Stephen
Ha-Ha! : ) I’ll leave it, because it is funny. I was still half-asleep when I posted : )
StephenAndrew
You seem to mainly apply allegorical interpretations to many events in the life, death, resurrection of Our Lord and that’s quite nice, indeed of poetic quality. For me the simpler expression of the words of scripture suffice, as they do for most.
I do wonder about the source of such advanced interpretations - do they derive from the writings of Christian scholars over the millennia, or are some of your own creation, inspired as it might be.
Peace to all,
Soul on the site introduced me to Maria Valtorta,
Maria Valtorta became the pin of Jesus, literally, and in reading her work, logic is confirmed through the logic of the mind of God from her writings to me.
Peace always,
Stephen
I had no knowledge of Valtorta or her writings before seeing the reference on this site. I note in recent exploring about her works there is no Vatican imprimatur and there have been Vatican issued statements refuting any supernatural origin. But that’s (IMO) not to say her works are devoid of true spiritual value - I cannot judge being ‘unread’.
Perhaps you and others have read the deeply research based book by Spanish theologian Jose A Pagola “Jesus - An Historical Approximation”. It makes no claim of supernatural origin simply of deriving from 30 years of extensive research of the study by scholars of the subject be they Jewish, Christian, Islamic even nontheists.
This book brought Jesus brilliantly to life for me as never before, particularly in His humanity but in His divinity too. It has no imprimatur, and was originally on the Vatican refuted list but as I recall after some re-editing by Pagola it became acceptable. Its comprehensive references to dozens of scholarly studies is a real jewel.
Peace to all,
So true, Lawrence, and I am sure there is plenty of actual and great histortical non fiction, through his works.
Jose A Pagola is The Historical Pen of Jesus
Maria Valtorta is the Literary Pen of Jesus
Stephen Andrew is the Logical Pen of Jesus, I believe.
It appears to be primarily used by an individual named Stephen Andrew and related forums/websites to describe a specific, logical and comprehensive view of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity
Peace always,
Stephen, The Logical Pen of Jesus
Hello Lawrence,
… Some thoughts …
The meanings of hell, as I understand, in the Creed, is referring not to eternal damnation, but to the place which can be akin to our modern idea of purgatory, or a kind of netherworld from the common understanding of that period in time.
In this sense, Jesus, would have spent (some) of those 3 days, there … where the souls of the dead before Him, reside …
~
(my paraphrasing understandings drawn from the latter … below )
~
When Jesus rose, on Easter Sunday, he returned from that ‘hell’, with those souls he has brought forth from purgatory to ascend to heaven with Him. (I think there are paintings of Fra Angelico regarding this).
~
For example… When I say the Creed before Rosary,
I emphasize in my own heart, at this point …
~ “ He descended into Hell; …
~ (In thought, here, I add to the latter .. ‘for the resurrection of souls’ )
~" the third day He arose again from the dead;
Open and asking for suggestions,
Take care,
Michael
Peace to all,
What never dies is the eternal spirit manifesting for the created souls through the flesh. Old covenant animal sacrifice only saves the spirit in the souls awaiting in the Bosom of Abraham.
Jesus spent the days before east of Jerusalem near the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was in the tomb , the city of Jerusalem, for three days and nights, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday out of the tomb Saturday morning, early and into the Chasm of the Bosom of Abraham resurrection for all the angels, insane and hearts, and old covenant saved from the spirit through the flesh with all crossing over to the chasm of hell, busting down the gates and tearing down the walls and binding Satan in his home home, destroying death forever for all becoming again one Holy Spirit, family, one God in being, I believe.
Peace always,
Stephen
The sentence that you quote ;”he descended into hell” is obviously absurd. But if we are going to apply logic and common sense to christian doctrine and catholic teaching there will be many many more such insurmountable problems. Better to simply not ask the questions in order to maintain your faith.
Again, “Hell” in the context of the Creed, refers to Sheol, or Limbo, not the eternal Hell of the damned. God closed the gates of Heaven to humanity after Eve and Adam disobeyed Him, and from that point up until Jesus’s Resurrection, just souls who died having merited Heaven on earth went to the Kingdom of Limbo awaiting Jesus, and His re-opening of the gates of Heaven. Therefore, Jesus’ descent was a singular event in which he liberated these souls, and they, aside from Him, were Heaven’s first human inhabitants.
For example, “in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19), and “Now this, ‘He ascended’, what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Eph. 4:9).
