I was recently having a respectful dialogue with my Wife’s step-Dad about the good thief on the Cross. I tried to explain to him that verse 43 of Luke 23 does not literally mean that they went to Heaven right after their death. It could mean that Jesus was telling him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” The original Greek did not have punctuation. Camas do change the meaning of a statement. “Let’s eat, Grandma” could mean something entirely different in modern English if you remove the punctuation, “Let’s eat Grandma” : )
We both agree that the man would be saved. Our differences are weather this was an exception (an act of mercy) on the part of Christ or the norm by which we are saved (faith alone).
It of course detoured off into the concept of purgatory (where the soul, through fire, is made pure & clean prior to entering Heaven, which we know nothing unclean may enter).
But, it also got me thinking. Did Jesus even go to Heaven on the same day they were crucified? Thoughts?
It doesn’t say in your Bible Jesus talking about anything that was in Heaven, so I would assume He didn’t. Keep in mind, I’m talking about when he died, and after he resurrected. Sorry, had to edit what it is I said lol.
Yes, in 1 Peter it describes how Jesus went to go preach to souls in the realm of the dead (1 Peter 3:19-20) who had died prior to Jesus’ death & resurrection.
When I Google the question, I get the following:
“Did Jesus go to Heaven the same day He was crucified? No, according to most Christian interpretations, Jesus did not go to Heaven the same day He was crucified; He was in the tomb for three days, but He did go to ‘Paradise’ (a part of Hades or the realm of the dead) with the repentant thief, promising they would be together there, though His full ascension to the Father occurred 40 days after His resurrection. Key passages, like Jesus telling Mary Magdalene He hadn’t yet ascended (John 20:17) and the promise to the thief (Luke 23:43, interpreted with a comma after “today”), suggest He was in the grave but with the thief in a spiritual sense.”
It could also be that the thief on the cross received a Baptism of desire. We know that at our Baptism that we are made perfectly holy (cleansed of both original sin and actual sin). It could be that he died in a state of perfect contrition for his sins on the cross.
Ah I see. Probably what happened was I worded the question wrong. All I do know is, don’t ever go on Wikipedia. People can put whatever they want on there and call it fact. Unless you’re looking up something that not a whole lot of people care about, you’ll get factual information. But if you look up something on there that is religious or political, make sure you double check their sources and if their sources have sources check those too….cause that’s when things get iffy.
But glad you got your answer. If I’m being honest, I was too lazy to actually search for the answer….all you have to do is just spend some time reading everything and making sure the sources are trusted. Technology is great for finding information fast, but whether or not the information is true is a way different ballgame. There are some studies and other information that should never see the light of day….
Oh and History too. Wikiepedia is notorious for giving biased information regarding History. Again, as long as it’s something that not a whole lot of people care about, Wikipedia is wonderful for giving true info on stuff most people don’t really care about. But History, Politics, or Religion has too much slanted information. Even my beliefs on Wikipedia is so biased and slanted, I was actually kicked out of a Discord server, all because the people on Discord were willing to take what Wikipedia said over what it is I believe. Of course Wikipedia is going to make me look like a nut, because I’m part of the 2% of people that literally don’t fall under any specific category, because I literally do not fit-in. So needless to say, Discord didn’t like my beliefs all because of a Wikipedia article LOL! When the truth is, no one on there truly knew what it was I believed in. It’s crazy how people will side with popular opinion instead of doing the investigating themselves.
Jesus left The Tomb of Jerusalem from a Cross and descended early Saturday AM to the chasms. Emptied was The Chasm of The Bosom of Abraham and crossing over with all The Christ in the flesh Destroyed and closed was the Chasm of Death forever and resurrected was all through The Christ from the Bosom of Abraham reopening the Gates of Heaven for all returning in The Christ on Sunday AM, I believe.
God promised Abraham eternal life and swore by His Own Name eternal life to all of the descendents of Abraham and 2000 years later fulfileld His Promise throuth two natures, fuflilled from the incorruptible spirit for the immortal life through His Son and The Bride of Jesus, Mary, becoming through both natures in One Body of The Christ becoming again in all Creation One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I believe.
Jesus resurrects from the spirit for the souls out of the Bosom of Abraham becoming through the flesh nature in One Body through the Christ now for all becoming again through two natures spirit and life becoming again in One Holy Spirit Family One God in being, I think.
Death and descention is for two natures from Baptized Sanctification from the living waters becoming transformation becoming through the Christ from Sacrifice and Penance becoming forgiven becoming glorified from spirit incorruuption transfigured in all One Family.
Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be
baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying,
“I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are
coming to me?” Jesus said to him in reply,
“Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill
all righteousness.” Then he allowed him. After
Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and
behold, the heavens were opened for him, and he
saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and
coming upon him. And a voice came from the
heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with
whom I am well pleased.”
Jesus was Baptized to fulfill all righteousness to be able to through death become again from death through resurrection in both natures.
The New Living Sacrifice transforms flesh becoming immortal and glorifies and transfigures from the Power of the Holy Spirit becoming One Family Body through two natures,
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad when they saw the Lord.
Peace to all,
20/20 vision is John 20:20 and the institution of the Sacrament of Confession, I believe.
I got an answer. I don’t put much stock in the validity of Google. The reason you and I got different answers could be because we slightly worded the questions differently or because Google tries to learn things about us and responds differently based on what she knows or does not know about each of us. The world we live in.
According to Jesus, the gates of Heaven were closed to humans from the moment Eve and Adam disobeyed God until He re-opened them after His death. Between those two events occurring, whenever a person died, if at their individual judgment he/she was judged by the Father to be a future inhabitant of Heaven, then they first went to one of the two kingdoms that both preceded Heaven: Purgatory, if judged to be lightly guilty and in need of purification, and then on to Limbo, or immediately to Limbo (or Abraham’s Bosom), if judged to be just, where they awaited Jesus to re-open the gates of Heaven for them. He also said that suffering is redemptive, and that the more we experience and offer up our suffering here on earth, the less time we need to spend in Purgatory, if at our individual judgment that’s where we are judged to go before entering Heaven.
Bearing all of this in mind regarding the interactions between Jesus and the good thief, Disma, according to the summarized, but sufficient account of the Evangelists, we read the following:
Then there were two robbers crucified with him, one on his right hand and one on the left. (Matt. 27:38)
With him they crucified two robbers; one on his right hand, and one on his left. (Mk. 15:27)
One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, “If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Don’t you even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.” He said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise. (Lk. 23:39-43)
Therefore the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who was crucified with him (Jn. 19:32)
According to the in-depth account of Maria Valtorta, who described the vision of the scene of Him and Disma on their crosses, which she received from Jesus, we read the following excerpts:
But the robber on the left hand side continues to insult from his cross. He seems to have summarised all the curses of the other people and he repeats them all, and ends by saying: «Save Yourself and save us, if You want people to believe You. You the Christ? You are mad! The world belongs to crafty people, and God does not exist. I do. That is true and everything is permitted to me. God?.. Nonsense! Invented to keep us quiet. Long live our egos! Man’s ego alone is king and god!»
The other robber, who is on the right hand side with Mary almost near his feet, and looks at Her almost more than he looks at Jesus, and for some moments has been weeping murmuring: «My mother», says: «Be silent. Do you not fear God even now that you suffer this pain? Why do you insult Him Who is good? And His torture is even greater than ours. And He has done nothing wrong.»
The Judaeans, driven beyond the open space, do not stop insulting, and the unrepentant robber echoes their insults.
The other one (Disma), who now looks at the Mother with deeper and deeper compassion, and weeps, answers him back sharply, when he hears that She also is included in the insult. «Be silent. Remember that you were born of a woman. And consider that our mothers have wept because of their sons. And they were tears of shame… because we are criminals. Our mothers are dead… I would like to ask mine to forgive me… But shall I be able? She was a holy woman… I killed her with the sorrow I gave her… I am a sinner… Who will forgive me? Mother, in the name of Your dying Son, pray for me.»
The Mother for a moment raises Her tortured face and looks at him, the poor wretch who through the remembrance of his mother and the contemplation of the Mother moves towards repentance, and She seems to caress him with Her kind gentle eyes.
Disma weeps louder, which raises even more the mockery of the crowd and of his companion. The former shout: «Very well. Take Her as your mother. So She will have two criminal sons!» The latter aggravates the situation saying: «She loves you because you are a smaller copy of Her darling. »
Jesus speaks for the first time: «Father, forgive them because they do not know what they are doing!»
This prayer overcomes all fear in Disma. He dares to look at the Christ and says: «Lord, remember me when You are in Your Kingdom. It is just that I should suffer. But give me mercy and peace hereafter. I heard You speak once and I foolishly rejected Your word. I now repent. And I repent of my sins before You, the Son of the Most High. I believe that You come from God. I believe in Your power. I believe in Your mercy. Christ, forgive me in the name of Your Mother and of Your Most Holy Father. »
Jesus turns round and looks at him with deep compassion, and He smiles a still beautiful smile with His poor tortured lips. He says: «I tell you: today you will be with Me in Paradise.»
The repentant robber calms down, and as he no longer remembers the prayers he learned when a child, he repeats as an ejaculation: «Jesus Nazarene, king of the Jews, have mercy on me; Jesus Nazarene, king of the Jews, I hope in You; Jesus Nazarene, king of the Jesus, I believe in Your Divinity. »
Nicodemus and Joseph arrive back running and they say that they have Pilate’s permission. But Longinus, who is not too trustful, sends a horse-soldier to the Proconsul to learn what he has to do also with regard to the two robbers. The soldier goes and come back at a gallop with the order to hand over Jesus and break the legs of the other two, by will of the Jews.
Longinus calls the four executioners, who are cravenly crouched under the rock, still terrorised by what has happened, and orders them to give the robbers the death-blow with a club. Which takes place without any protest by Disma, to whom the blow of the club, delivered to his heart, after striking his knees, breaks in half, on his lips, the name of Jesus, in a death-rattle. The other robber utters horrible curses. Their death-rattles are lugubrious. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 5)
Furthermore, in transcripts dictated by Jesus to Maria Valtorta on October 16th, 1943, February 23rd, 1946, and September 11th, 1950, He said the following about Disma:
I taught you to have faith in the Mercy granted to whoever repents by promising Paradise to Disma. (The Notebooks: 1943)
Is there someone who is a sinner, a great sinner, foreseeably one of the future damned? And why shouldn’t I, the Good Shepherd, the Savior, go on trying to save with My love, until the final hour, until the soul’s separation from the body? Remember Disma… I had encountered him, once and again, with no apparent benefit, with no apparent intention of encountering him… In the eyes of the people, the impenitent thief could have seemed like a defeat for Me. It must certainly have looked like a foolish act of weakness on My part to pour Myself benignantly into the jaws of Carit, the thief who—in a gesture of goodness towards the One who, in another valley, nearly a year before, had spoken kindly to the robber to get him to mend his ways—brought Him roast lamb, undoubtedly the result of a theft. But what could the sinner give except sin? Definitely the result of a theft, but one which was purified through the charitable act whose substance it became. Everything must have seemed like this, and some apostles must have tasted a scandal in the meat offered… But a year later the loving words in the valley near Modin and the loving gaze offered to Carit as one bringing the fruit of his horrendous work, joined to the loving words and loving gazes of a Crucified One and a wounded Mother, saved Disma. (The Notebooks: 1945-1950)
The most beautiful conquests of God were Matthew, Mary Magdalene, Zaccheus, and Disma—that is, the great sinners. Great. But they did not spiritually throw themselves onto the ground passively, saying, 'I am so bad,’ but, rather, with their spirit they surged up and ran towards Forgiveness and Love with trust. " (The Notebooks: 1945-1950)
Based on the above, regarding your question about whether Disma was saved by the exception (an act of mercy) on the part of Christ, or the norm by which we are saved (faith alone), the answer is several factors led to his being saved, including both the Mercy of God through Disma’s faith in Him and His promise of Mercy granted to whoever repents (Prov. 28:13, 1 Jn. 1:9).
Regarding your question about whether Jesus re-opened and entered the gates of Heaven after His physical death, but while His body was lifeless, the answer is yes, because after His Resurrection He first appeared to His Mother, before appearing to Mary Magdalene, and told Her that He did. Below is an excerpt:
Mother, thanks for conceiving Me, for bringing Me up, for helping Me in life and in death.
I heard Your prayers come to Me. They have been My strength in My grief, My companions in My journey on the Earth and beyond the Earth. They came with Me on the Cross and to Limbo. They were the incense that preceded the Pontiff, Who was going to call His servants and take them to the temple that does not die: to My Heaven. They have come with Me to Paradise, preceding, like an angelical voice, the procession of the redeemed led by the Redeemer, so that the angels should be ready to greet the Conqueror, Who was returning to His Kingdom. They have been seen and heard by the Father and by the Spirit, Who smiled at them, as if they were the most beautiful flower and the sweetest song born in Paradise. They have been recognised by the Patriarchs and by the new Saints, by the new, first, citizens of My Jerusalem, and I bring You their thanks, Mother, together with the kisses of their relatives, with their blessings and with that of Joseph, the spouse of Your soul.
The whole of Heaven sings its hosanna to You, Mother, Holy Mother! A hosanna that does not die, that is not a false one like the one given to Me a few days ago.
I will now go to the Father in My human appearance. Paradise must see the Conqueror in His appearance of Man, by means of which He defeated the Sin of Man. But I will come again. I must confirm in the Faith those who do not yet believe and are in need to believe to lead the others to believe, I must fortify the pusillanimous ones who will need so much strength to resist the world.
Then I will ascend to Heaven.
Therefore, Disma would’ve been in Paradise (Heaven) with Jesus with little to no delay following their physical deaths, just as Jesus said that he would be. And, after having released the souls in Purgatory and Limbo, re-opened/entered the gates of Heaven, and Resurrecting, Jesus went back to the Father again twice more, but these times by Ascending from the Earth in His glorified human appearance: the first time after speaking with His Mother and then Mary Magdalene (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 5, chs. 614-615, Jn. 20:17), and the second and final time 40 days later (Mk. 16:19, Lk. 24:51, Ac. 1:9). The following are additional quotes from Peter and Jesus about His descent to Limbo while His physical body was lifeless:
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison […]" (1 Pet. 3:18-19)
[…] I descended […] to bring out of Limbo those who awaited My coming […] (The Notebooks: 1944, January 15th,1944)
When, in the superabundance of My joy after the consummation of the Sacrifice, I was able to open Limbo for the just and take many spirits out of Purgatory, I shook with horror, contemplating in My thought that only for the place of damnation was there no redemption or transformation of horror. But I did not enter there. It was not proper or useful to do so. (The Notebooks: 1945-1950, January 31st, 1947)
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
