Can you prove that God exists? And if you cannot, why do you believe?

Genuinely respectful question.

I was raised both Catholic and Southern Baptist and never developed an affinity for either, which led to me rejecting the idea of religion altogether after much thought. That doesn’t mean I think religious dogma can’t do good in the world; I understand that decent people can do caring and selfless things for others in the name of their faith. But people are imperfect, and religion (Catholicism specifically, since I’m on this forum) has also been used as an excuse to commit many atrocities.

At what point, if ever, has it struck you to make a sincere effort to prove that the God you worship actually exists, or do you simply believe it does? And if you have tried to prove its existence, failed, yet continued to believe, why? Do you think that it’s wrong to simply not believe if a conclusion to support the irrefutable existence of God cannot be made?

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Thomas Aquinas said to one who has faith no explanation is necessary to one without faith no explanation is possible.

Pray for faith my friend pray for faith !

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Hi @actualevidence and welcome to this Forum! (I am also relatively new here).

I’d love to discuss with you at length, so please take my brief responses here as conversation openers, and not final responses.

Do you have any actual evidence of this? Ok, here is where I am coming from. I have noticed that such blanket statements often conceal a deep lack of historical knowledge. It’s not to say that Catholics haven’t done awful things, and sometimes in the name of religion. But for me to take your statement as true, I would want it to be qualified with nuance and concrete facts. So there’s one topic of discussion.

I’m a Catholic philosopher. These sorts of question have occupied my mind in the most serious ways for two decades. Here’s what I can say with confidence:

  1. The existence of God can be demonstrated by rational, philosophical arguments.
  2. The divinity of Christ, the Trinity, and other dogmas of Christian revelation cannot be so demonstrated. They exceed the capacities of reason, and we needed a revelation to come to “know” them. They are mysteries.
  3. What we can know by reason, is that these mysteries, expressed in dogmas, are credible, or believable, because of the testimony that accompanies them. The teachers of these mysteries came and still come with the right credentials.
  4. Faith is rational, but does not rest on reason alone. Utimately, we can say based on reason that “it is reasonable to believe”, but to say “I believe” in a way that is genuine and not forced, in a manner that respects our intellectual nature, requires the grace of God.

My belief in God is not based on proof. I am convinced that the Gospels are true. I can’t prove that they are true, but I believe them.

I believe that my wife will love me for the rest of our lives, no matter what. I can’t prove it, but I am convinced of it.

I like this question. I feel like it’s a fair question to ask.

So can I prove that God exists? Well…isn’t that the million dollar question? Well, my answer is simply no, I cannot prove that my God exists. And it’s not for lack of trying, I just can’t prove God exists is all. Cause I could go on about my personal supernatural experiences, but usually when people ask this question, they’re searching for mostly empirical evidence, and I don’t have empirical evidence that he does exist.

But, the best follow-up question is if I cannot prove my God exists then why even believe in one? Again, this is another fair question. So here’s how I look at it, and I’m not saying my way is the best way, but I always try to keep an open mind. You see, we live in a Universe full of possibilities, and by writing off God as nothing but a mythological entity, you are also closing your mind to the possibility that God does exist.

But, on the opposite end, the same thing could be said about the non-existence of God, that by writing off God as the Creator of the Universe you could be closing your mind that an entirely different process was involved in the Creation of the Universe and didn’t involve a supernatural entity.

Here’s the deal, on a personal level, yes, I believe that a God does exist. However, I am open to the idea that God could possibly not exist. In fact, if tomorrow, or sometime in the future we, as a collective find out that God doesn’t actually exist, because I’m open to the idea of God not existing, the impact it would have on me won’t be so bad it would break my spirit.

A lot of people assume, and not just from a Catholic perspective, but from an Atheist perspective as well that I’m a fence sitter. Again, I repeat, personally I think a God does exist, but just because I’m open to the idea of God not being real doesn’t mean that I’m Atheist, it just simply means I’m fine either way. I know for a lot of people, that if God wasn’t real, it would completely shatter their perspective, or if God was real, it would shatter other people’s perspective. I just think going into any subject with an open mind is vital, because to close your mind to any possibility for anything means that if by some chance you are wrong, it could be devastating for you. Open minds hunger for knowledge all the time, and are constantly willing to learn. Closed minds only learn so much, but at some point will stop learning. Have an open mind to anything and everything, after all, who knows what you might find out if your mind is open.

That’s the way I view it.

…“Signature In the Cell” Buy Stephen Meyer Makes a very Good argument, proves Actually The existence of a higher power, a higher intelligence, using the scientific method, A pioneer of intelligent design. It is a very heavy read but YouTube has more than a few good videos summarizing his proofs Very nicely.

Another note Since you cannot prove that God does not exist why do you believe he doesn’t.

I appreciate your willingness to have a patient discourse. I like to read, learn, and write, so this is educational and enjoyable for me.

  1. Widely-known examples are the Crusades, which were wars blessed by the papacy to reclaim the Promised Land of the Jews and led to the killing of countless people. Historians learned that Catholic forces slaughtered civilians caught in the conflict, executed prisoners of war, and systemically looted, all justified in the name of God. The Sack of Jerusalem is one such example, where after breaching the city, crusaders killed thousands of Muslims and Jew civilians, including women and children. During the Third Crusade, Richard the Lionheart (who fought directly on behalf of the Catholic faith) ordered the execution of thousands of Muslim prisoners and their families after not getting a ransom.

Another example is the Spanish Inquisition, where Catholics, with the official backing of Pope Sixtus IV, used unfair imprisonment, torture, and execution against people simply accused of what they deemed to be heresy and Protestantism. To be fair, although the Pope deeply regretted giving his blessing (and thus God’s supposed blessing) for the Inquisition, he caved under threat of losing military support against the Ottoman Empire. He fell victim to the politics of man rather than do what was moral, regardless of the consequences, and continued to allow others to use God as an excuse to justify inhumane cycles of horror. Keep in mind that I understand that such circumstances are not easy for one man to navigate. But when given the opportunity to stop the Inquisition, he did not. He granted and remained complicit in the suffering of countless innocents.

There are many other well-documented examples throughout history, but for the sake of time, I won’t go into them. A quick search would provide all the education you need.

  1. Philosophy will always be a vital study of knowledge, so I respect that.

A. Can you demonstrate the unequivocal existence of God? Not through conjecture, speculation, or faith. But by means in which I could observe for myself?

B. If the divinity cannot be demonstrated, then it’s reasonable for anyone to say that they don’t exist. By all means, you can say that you worship them and use them as a means to guide your path through life, but the claim that they exist in any observable way cannot be made in good faith. It’s fair and true to say anything that exceeds the capacity of reason is a fantasy, fiction, or fairy tale unless proven otherwise. A mystery is something that has, so far, been impossible to prove real, and thus, if the divinity is a mystery, the claim for its existence is dubious.

C. How do you know that the testimony is real? What credentials did the teachers of such mysteries claim to possess, and were they actually proven to possess them, or did people simply believe that they possessed them without proof, because they were convinced that proof was unnecessary?

D. I argue that faith without evidence is never rational. I could have faith that the sky will burst into flame one day and incinerate us all, but without proof to support what I’m claiming to be inevitable, I’m simply weaving a fiction. Likewise, I could have faith that God would protect my devout heart from a gunshot, but without the proof to support that claim, I would in fact be killed. Faith without evidence always leads to some spectrum of delusion. The level of the delusion, and as a result, what decisions and actions are made in light of it, depends on what said faith is being placed in.

I understand the sentiment, but it doesn’t answer my question. And it also doesn’t give a good enough excuse for a skeptical person who’s on the fence to actually take the faith seriously and convert.

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary.”

That generally only applies to ideas that we know aren’t real. For example, I don’t need an explanation for why the tooth fairy will come, take an old tooth, and leave money under my pillow, because I accept that it’s a ritual, but not something real. In the same vein, I wouldn’t be genuinely scared for my life after being told a story about a supernatural creature that kills people in the woods if I was out camping with friends.

No one needs an explanation or evidence for things that are understood not to be real. But when something is claimed to be true, like the beliefs that form the Catholic faith (and all religions in general), evidence is vital in order to rightfully support the actions taken in the name of such faiths.

For example, why would I ever go to war for a God that no one can prove is real? If you can’t prove that God is real, then I wouldn’t be going to satisfy the wishes of a deity; I would be going to sate the desires of fallible men, which is often a dangerous thing in and of itself.

In addition, if God cannot be proven real, then any and all things asked of anyone in the name of a faith that worships it would be engaging in manipulation, which, in the simplest way, is using information to mislead. That doesn’t mean such manipulation is inherently heinous, but it’s manipulation nonetheless.

Also, it’s true that “to one without faith, no explanation is possible,” because faith in anything without evidence to prove its validity is gullibility.

“Faith without evidence always leads to some spectrum of delusion.”

How could you prove that?

Furthermore, if something is proven, who needs faith? As I write this, I am sitting on a 4th-floor balcony. I don’t believe in the law of gravity. It operates whether or not I believe in it.

If you could prove the existence of God, who would need faith?

Yet God desires faith. “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” You don’t have to believe that, nor do we have to believe unproven assertions that faith without proof involves delusion and gullibility.

I could have faith that Black people are superior to Asian people, but there’s no evidence to rightfully or morally support that claim. So it would be false, yet continuing to belief it on faith would make me deluded.

In your example, it doesn’t matter if you believe in the phenomena of gravity or not. Scientists and mathematicians have proven that it’s the force by which matter is attracted to one another. When something is proven to be unequivocally true, faith is irrelevant. To not believe in it would be a rejection of truth, which can lead to a slew of issues that could negatively affect people around you since you don’t live an isolated life.

Therefore, your question, “If you could prove the existence of God, who would need faith?” has all the merit in the world. However, the existence of God has never been proven. It’s merely been assumed and asserted.

How do you know that God desires faith? That would mean that God itself exists, which you’ve stated you can’t prove. Which circles back to the second part of my original question: why exactly do you, and many others who so fiercely belief it that they would infringe upon others because of it, believe in something that could very well be fiction and has never been demonstrated to be factual?

@Literalman , this is really antithetic to the Catholic view. The Catholic Church rejects fideism, the view that religious truth should be accepted by faith alone while reason is incapable of attaining genuine knowledge of God or supporting the credibility of revelation. Please see my post from before:

Have you read Catholic historians on these periods in history, or even historians without an axe to grind?

Replying on all points at once might be counterproductive, but maybe I can start a conversation on this one.

In some sense, I don’t merely believe in the existence of God anymore; it’s something I know. But neither is it something I became convinced of because I read a quick proof of it somewhere. It took time to develop the philosophical insights that led to this conviction. Let me point you in a direction I found helpful.

First, here is a thought experiment. Imagine you wake up in a locked room, with no recollection of how you got there. As you look around the room, you see no apparent door or visible window. Imagine the space and furniture as you’d like. Eventually, something strikes you: you can see, so there is light in the room, but you don’t know where the light is coming from. So you set out to find a source of light. How might you do that? You look more closely at everything. Maybe you make a little cave with your joined hands, and you peek in with an eyeball. If it’s dark then the light originates from somewhere else. And you must keep looking to find the source of light!

Arriving at the conclusion that God exists is a somewhat similar process. While there are many aspects of the world that speak to the existence of God, the very being of things is perhaps the most revealing. When you wake up in the morning, consider that things exist: you, your bed, whatever else. Ask each of the things in your environment: Why do you exist now? Are you the source of existence or do you get your existence from another? A closer consideration of the existing things of the world shows that they don’t exist necessarily: what they are does not tell us whether they are. They might not have been. But things do exist, and so there must be some source of being that exists necessarily, that has being by itself and communicates it to others, in the manner of a source of light.

I have found that materialistic atheists have two kinds of attitude towards this line of argumentation - and towards the question of God in general.

Firstly, the question is thought to be unscientific and therefore not a genuine question. A fortiori, the line of argumentation is thought to be unscientific and therefore non-rational. I can hear Popper’s name echoing in the void… My first, short response is that the scientific methods are not reducible to falsifiability, and human rationality is not reducible to the methods of this or that science.

If pressed further, another attitude sometimes emerges, no longer skeptical but daringly metaphysical: the universe is just the way it is and doesn’t need further explanation. At bottom, it has its own necessity that doesn’t need any further ground of existence. The accounts may vary. Before Father Lemaître proposed the primeval atom (mocked by his atheist peers under the now better known name of “Big Bang” theory), cosmologists believed in a stagnant cosmos. Since then, quantum-physics-inspired accounts have been proposed for the emergence of the world, always bringing back contingent existence to some kind of necessary substratum - or a “nothing” that is really not nothing at all. But whatever their scientific merits, these explanations are not compatible with atheism in the strict sense. A necessary being as the ground of existence is what is we call God (it’s a good starter definition for what we mean by the word “God”). Whether it’s described as space-time, or higher dimensional branes, or a wave-function doesn’t really change its basic ontological status.

I take the last point to be a hint that genuine rationality must acknowledge the existence of God – the alternatives are God or fundamental absurdity – and we do philosophical theology best when we are explicit that that is what we are doing.

Here is the way St. Thomas Aquinas rehearses one version of the argument I summarized before:

“Now, whatever belongs to a thing is either caused by the principles of its nature, as the ability to laugh in man, or comes to it from some extrinsic principle, as light in the air from the influence of the sun. But it cannot be that the existence of a thing is caused by the form or quiddity of that thing ─ I say caused as by an efficient cause ─ because then something would be its own cause, and would bring itself into existence, which is impossible. It is therefore necessary that every such thing, the existence of which is other than its nature, have its existence from some other thing. And because every thing which exists by virtue of another is led back, as to its first cause, to that which exists by virtue of itself, it is necessary that there be some thing which is the cause of the existence of all things because it is existence alone. Otherwise, there would be an infinite regress among causes, since every thing which is not existence alone has a cause of its existence, as has been said. It is clear, therefore, that an intelligence is form and existence, and that it has existence from the First Being, which is existence alone. And this is the First Cause, which is God.” - St. Thomas Aquinas (De Ente c. 4)

  1. Yes, I made sure to read historical conclusions from both Catholic and non-Catholic sources, since it’s always best to explore as many avenues as possible when evaluating the validity of history. All of them acknowledge that Catholic forces committed documented atrocities during those periods. The question is largely irrelevant anyway, since it’s simply a matter of proven history, Catholic source or not. One could even make the argument that Catholic sources would be more likely to bend the truth, and thus be less reliable, since they would have a vested interest in making their faith look as attractive as possible.

  2. You can’t reliably claim to know God exists because the claim is not coupled with something you can substantiate in reality. You can rationalize the existence of God, but rationalizing something isn’t the same as proving its true, either to yourself or others. In both cases, you’re choosing to accept something as true without uncontested evidence, which makes anyone biased at best and dishonest at worst.

Your experiment, although elaborate, doesn’t move anywhere towards establishing the unequivocal existence of God, or any gods, for that matter.

God isn’t proven to exist simply because things exist. If you’re implying that God is the only rational cause of such existing things, that’s not correct. First of all, why would you make that assumption, and what proof can you provide to make it factual? The creation of all things (if in fact all things were created at all) could be the result of anything: an explosion of energy, another supernatural occurrence, or other things that I can’t currently fathom. God, or any other omnipotent intelligence, cannot be rationalized as the correct cause, because others can just as easily fill its place.

Maybe it is helpful for me to offer initial short replies to various parts of your post.

The argument doesn’t assume that God is intelligent or omnipotent. Those are things we can prove, but they require other kinds of arguments. Please reconsider what I have written more carefully.

There exists contingent beings: things that are but don’t have to be (just like, in the thought experiment, there are things that are lit, without being a source of light). That’s the starting point of the argument, and it is not so hard to substantiate: things come in and out of existence all the time.

The whole argument is presented as a proof of exactly this. It is not an assumption.

I don’t think I have rationalized. What I have given is an intuitive, lego block presentation of a genuine proof, one that brought me, personally, from a state of not knowing, to knowing. This proof is a genuine and significant intellectual accomplishment, and one I invite your to take seriously.

But if it doesn’t even appear like it might be a plausible or helpful line of reasoning for you at this point, then I suspect we will have a lot to talk about - and debate about - before we can seriously consider this kind of argumentation. Where to start?

Perhaps a good place to start is this: What is truth? And how do we come to know it? Please tell me your thoughts on this.

Also: what’s your drink of choice?

  1. The fact that Catholics believe that God is both omnipotent and intelligent begs to differ. Remember, I was raised, baptized, and recreationally studied Catholicism, so, while nowhere near an expert, I have a decent grasp on the faith.

  2. I’m aware that you’re using an argument for contingency, meaning that God must exist because we can observe that things are contingent, or that they begin and end, and therefore, don’t have to exist. However, just because things are contingent doesn’t mean the cosmos must have a cause outside of itself. Claiming so is a logical fallacy, because even if you could prove that a necessary cause exists, and I’m more than willing to grant that for the sake of our discussion, it doesn’t prove that it’s your God, or any other moral, all-powerful entity with a consciousness and a desire to create.

  3. What is the proof that your specific God not only exists, but is the cause of all existing things? For reasons I’ve already explained, using the contingency argument isn’t a reliable model to demonstrate the truth of that claim.

  4. But it’s not a genuine proof. At best, it’s a theory, and one that you’re free to believe, but are wrong to claim that it can be used as a model to explain the undeniable existence of God to others, especially those who never believed in the first place. Remember, although I don’t share your faith, I also don’t claim that your God doesn’t exist. Of course, that’s impossible for me to prove. But I’m wondering whether or not you can since you believe it, which would be important if you were trying to get anyone else to believe without using what’s essentially conjecture and speculation.

  5. Truth is anything that conforms to reality and fact. I’ll go one further because I believe it’s relevant. The difference between a truth and a belief is that the latter may be subjectively considered true if it’s consistent with a system of ideas, but that doesn’t mean that the belief (and the ideas that support it) is true.

  6. I’m 34 now, and I haven’t grown into a drinker and never will. I almost killed myself after drinking way too much whiskey and sake at the same time when I was younger, and from that day forward I promised myself that I would never drink again, at least not in excess. If I go to a bar I almost always ask for orange juice, but as a result, I hardly go to bars, because why go to a bar if you’re only going to drink orange juice lol. What about you?

I am 35. I enjoy pinot noir and scotch, and a good cup of tea.

Yes, of course Catholics believe that God is omnipotent and intelligent. But that is not the object of the argument.

The argument, in its full glory, concludes that there exists a unique necessary being which is identical with its own of existence. Most arguments for God’s existence establish even less.

Whether this God revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush is a separate question, one that requires a whole different set of considerations. But it is interesting that Moses (if you believe Moses is the author of Exodus) reported that God called himself “he who is”.

If you take this view, then you are claiming that the cosmos is God, and that is exactly the second attitude that I indicated in my original post:

Is the cosmos as a whole that necessary being, God ? A possibility we can explore… My quick argument: the proof from contingency precludes this because it concludes to the existence of a God that is utterly simple. The cosmos has parts involving lots of interactions - not a good candidate.

That’s a tougher question. The argument might not establish that God is the cause of all contingent things. More would be needed to establish this.

For now, let me clarify what the summarized argument does show: that there must be and can only be one absolutely necessary being.

I don’t think so. It’s first of all an argument. If the argument doesn’t convince you, you may raise objections, or ask for clarifications. Of course there are many claims folded in that may need further justification. And more importantly, concepts that need to be further articulated. But you probably shouldn’t expect an argument like this to be wholly clear and convincing all at once. It may require reading a dozen books, and discussing with a few other people. But for starters, I am here :slight_smile:

That said, I think your wholesale rejection of the argument’s flavor suggests it might be worth exploring your methodological requirements for proving something. And mine as well. This could be a very rich discussion, if you are interested.

Unjustified claims don’t even deserve the name of genuine “belief.” We have to have good reasons for what we say is true – it’s natural, in the deepest sense. Here’s how I would divide those terms. Perhaps we have a robust proof, that’s knowledge. Perhaps we have some arguments that give us a likelihood but also could be wrong, that’s opinion. (Most of what we commonly call science is in this category). Perhaps all we have is the testimony of someone we think is credible: that’s belief.

Note that even those who claim to have no reason for believing, or to have mere belief, do still try to present some rational for this. We have some examples in this chat:

(This doesn’t sound like Aquinas at all by the way…)

The parallel here is a kind of evidence of the legitimacy of belief. And rightly so. It’s natural and even reasonable to put out trust in trustworthy people.

@TheBrokenEar

  1. Anyone can make an argument for anything. I can make the argument that it’s possible for me to flap my arms and fly into the sky. But until I prove that’s objectively true, it’s not reasonable for anyone to believe it on faith. That’s nonsense, and I wouldn’t blame you for saying that my claim is nonsense. My question wasn’t whether an argument can be made for God’s existence, but whether or not you can objectively prove it.

  2. Can you prove that Moses existed, and if he did, whether he in fact experienced God speaking to him from a bush that burned but also did not burn? And if you cannot, is there anyone in history that has objectively proven the story to not be fiction, but fact? Or is it another story that believers are encouraged to take purely on faith, or from the accounts of a book that hasn’t either been proven to be entirely true?

  3. I’ve in no way claimed that the universe is God, since I haven’t even been provided evidence to support the claim that God exists. Considering the possibility that the cosmos is its own necessary foundation doesn’t turn it into a deity. The fact you contest that doesn’t change that it’s still possible the cosmos is necessary without needing an outside agent. We’re moving in circles because you can’t move on from the logical fallacy you’re using to unreliably justify God’s existence.

  4. You can make the claim that there must be and can only be one absolutely necessary being. As I’ve already said, you can make claims for anything. I have no problem with that for the sake of argument. But why would that one necessary being be the God that you worship?

  5. This is already quite a rich discussion, mainly because you still haven’t answered my two questions despite our extensive discourse: Can you prove that God exists? Not provide an argument for its existence or a dubious reason to accept based on faith, but objectively prove it? And if you cannot, why do you continue to believe something you cannot wholly substantiate?

  6. What it seems to me is that you rest in a place to justify what you believe to be true from a standpoint of providing arguments based on pieces of evidence that fall short of objectivity (the Bible, supposed eyewitness accounts, papal teachings, and explanations that hold logical fallacies). Again, my questions come from wondering whether you can move on from using unsubstantiated reasons to believe into providing objective, verifiable evidence, and if you cannot, why you choose to believe in a God that can’t be proven to exist.

  7. Again, anyone can rationalize anything, but proving it is something else entirely. “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary” is not a direction towards objectivity, because it skips any and all evidence to support God’s existence. It works well to explain belief, which is fine, but not fact.

Also, Literalman can easily demonstrate that he has a wife. But, although he can claim to have a God, he cannot objectively demonstrate that his God exists.

I already answered these questions:

You haven’t proven God’s objective existence, because you can’t merely think anything into existence. It must be shown or revealed to exist in reality, and such revelations must meet objectively verifiable standards. Saying that something is a mystery does not in good faith support that it’s in anyone’s best interest to believe it on faith, and it’s definitely not an excuse to use dubious forms of evidence as a means to verify something as true.

@actualevidence you haven’t begun to engage with the argument I put forward. Nor have you taken up my invitation to discuss method. Maybe I can model for you how to do that if you can deliver on what you promised:

Craft your argument, and I will illustrate for your how one replies to an argument.